Meaning of "percipient of light"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:47 am Btw, I’m still looking at those experts in abhidhamma to verify. Is it true that they have understood even the lower teaching or not? Let alone a higher teaching. But if you do, please let me know.
by the term abhidhamma you have chose the translation of higher teaching. But i have seen translation like ultimate science. things what can be known with the mind.
your problem that you are giving something up because you set it up that way.
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

Anyway good luck. The teaching is also to let go eventually, even the higher teaching.

Btw regarding the light. Just look at MN 127. But this also needs to be let go. Don’t get to attach to anything. I highly doubt many reach to this level nowadays.
MN 127 wrote: … there are these four kinds of rebirth in a future life. What four?

1. Take someone who meditates determined on pervading ‘limited radiance’. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of limited radiance.

2. Next, take someone who meditates determined on pervading ‘limitless radiance’. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of limitless radiance.

3. Next, take someone who meditates determined on pervading ‘corrupted radiance’. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of corrupted radiance.

4. Next, take someone who meditates determined on pervading ‘pure radiance’. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of pure radiance.

These are the four kinds of rebirth in a future life.



In the same way, take some mendicant who meditates determined on pervading ‘pure radiance’.

Their physical discomfort is completely settled, their dullness and drowsiness is completely eradicated, and their restlessness and remorse is completely eliminated. Because of this they don’t practice jhana dimly, as it were.

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of the gods of pure radiance...
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:53 am I highly doubt many reach to this level nowadays.
if you don't try you never will.
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:37 pm Problem is what kind of understanding you have about passadhi. What you tell aren't on point instruction, there is no reference point to real life sign of what passadhi, or samadhi are.
And its not how confidence in buddha grow, it is just text what can be understood all sorts of various ways. Learn what on point instructions are.
In case you don't know yet. When the desire/craving is stopped/let go, the mind will cool off and physical body will cool off as well. It is like being soaked in cool water. No physical pain anymore at this level.
jhana 3rd wrote:...with the fading away of piti, a mendicant lives in the third jhana, where they dwell with upekkha, sati and sampajanna, body is experiencing the sukha of which the noble ones declare, ‘one lives in Upekkha, sati, and sukha.’

It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. From the tip to the root they’re drenched, steeped, filled, and soaked with cool water. There’s no part of them that’s not soaked with cool water.
MN 127 wrote:Their physical discomfort is completely settled, their dullness and drowsiness is completely eradicated, and their restlessness and remorse is completely eliminated. Because of this they don’t practice jhana dimly, as it were.
you wrote:if you don't try you never will.
hm, I have checked many. None is at this level yet.
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Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

Abit OOT.

Btw I check Bhavanga. It looks like hindu concept for Bhava + Anga = conditions/factors for existence (Bhava).

Similar to sotāpattiyaṅgaṁ = Sotapatti Anga = Factors of Sotapanna. (SN 55.5)

I don't think Buddha use this term.

If they have said:
- When one can maintain Jhana, one has the Rupa/Arupa Bhavanga Now.
- or
human has a kama bhavanga.

So, when one can maintain the jhana NOW through end of life, they would be like living in jhana realm NOW & will take birth in brahma realm (if one hasn't reached Arahant level).

That is possible to understand. No need to wait for death for the mind to maintain the condition of birth in future or no birth in future (for an arahant).

But I think Abhidhamma created more definitions for it. Making it more like intermediate state, instead of actual state.

Anyway, I thought I share.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:58 am ..
..
abhidhamma by Narada Mahathera wrote: At the moment of death a thought-process that conditions
the future existence occurs. The object of this
thought-process may be (i) a Kamma (action) which one
has performed in the course of one’s life. One recollects the
deed as if being renewed. Strictly speaking, it is a recurring
of the consciousness which one has experienced while performing
the action. Or it may be (ii) any symbol (Kammanimitta)
which was conspicuous during the performance
of the action. It may also be (iii) characteristic symbol of
the place in which one is bound to be reborn (gatinimitta).
91 Taking one of these three as the object, the
rebirth-consciousness takes place in the future existence.
The object of the bhavaïga and cuti of that particular
existence is similar to that of the pañisandhi. Hence it was
stated above that they do not take any new external object.
..
abhdihamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon wrote: In the present life a person will be alive as long as the kusalakamma
(wholesome deed), which has given him rebirth in this
life, keeps on supporting him, i.e., keeps on producing bhavaïga
cittas (life continuum) as kamma-resultant.
Just before that supporting kamma fades out, of the many
kusala-kammas and akusala-kammas which compete with one
another to have the chance of bearing kamma-resultant, one
kamma will emerge as the winner.
This successful kamma may appear in the life-continuum
(mind-door) of the person as kamma-object. When this happens
the person may recollect the good or bad action which he has
performed in the past in connection with the successful kamma.
The moral or immoral consciousness, experienced at that
particular moment, arises now as a fresh consciousness.
In other words, it is a recurring of the consciousness which
one has experienced in performing the action.
At times it may be a sign or symbol associated with the
successful kamma that appears at one of the sense-doors. It may
be one of the five physical objects viewed through one of the
five doors as a present object, or viewed through the mind-door
as a past object. This past or present object associated with the
successful kamma is called ‘kamma-nimitta’ or ‘sign of kamma’.
vanguard
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by vanguard »

Could it refer to Abhassara?
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

Regarding:
auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:57 pm the term is
vuṭṭhahitvā
Look at the root. Another possible meaning as:

Although in the dictionary, it is said only for Vassa which I think probably not necessarily.
vuttha (p. 645)
Vuttha Vuttha2 [pp. of vasati2] having dwelt, lived or spent (time)
So It is possible to spend time in certain jhana before move to higher after let go. Not to exit. See below.

Regarding 24/7 jhana. This is supported in the following Sutta. The word of pali is aparihīno (not losing it).

a + Parihīna = not to exit/lose from it.

Note: doesn't mean one get hold on to jhana for it, instead live in it, then see the dukkha of jhana, let go and move to higher jhana till cessation eventually throw the jhana away once it has become automatic.
an 4.123 wrote:...Firstly, a mendicant, detached from sensual pleasures, detached from unskillful characters, live in the first jhana, which has the piti and sukha born of detachment, while vitakka & vicāra are present.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying.
So tadassādeti, taṁ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṁ āpajjati.

If they stay in that, are committed to it, and live in it, without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host.
Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṁ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṁ devānaṁ sahabyataṁ upapajjati....
if someone say they can sit, and go back to lay life after knowing jhana and break precepts again. Well probably they have a wrong jhana.

Also if someone say after staying in jhana, the 5 hindrances can comeback. They are also having the wrong jhana. Once one is jhana, the hindrances will not become hindrance anymore. Also, Jhana (samma samadhi) is used to stop all Asava(s) and remove impurities (kilesa).

Note: I'm referring here for Samma Samadhi, not some other jhana from outsider.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:00 am .
I disagree on the things you say. Based on simple logic, which is: The more secluded and longer you have been the easier and faster is to get satisfaction.
The copulation desire inducing sensation, is what one can start contain and endure with ease and is the subtle pleasure of the otherwise vivid and vibrant sensation.
The mental happiness results from that you have contained it, from that the vibrant sensation has subsided.
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

Anyway, it is ok to disagree because one still doesn’t know.

Btw when one reached jhana (samma samadhi), the physical body will transform totally. The breathing will cease/slow down considerably as well.The body hormones (which Buddha refer as fever in many sutta) will cease as well. Little to no sweat.

Here is the Sutta for reference. In jhana, the sensation is totally off from sexual or touch. The mind is completely happy by staying inside away from Mara realms.

If there is still sexual desire, well one is not in jhana anymore. This samma samadhi is developed with wisdom and totally a pure state, not any regular folks can experience.
AN 9.34 wrote:
There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, Nibbana is bliss! Nibbana is bliss!”

When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”

The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.

Reverend, there are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.

First, take a mendicant who, detached from sensual pleasures … lives in the first jhana. While a mendicant is in such a living, should perceptions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them due to loss of focus, that’s an affliction for them. Suppose a happy person were to experience pain; that would be an affliction for them. In the same way, should perceptions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them due to loss of focus, that’s an affliction for them. And affliction has been called suffering by the Buddha.

That’s the way to understand how Nibbana is bliss.

Anyway, good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:19 pm ..
So, if one hears true dhamma which is words only or you think there is some sort of psychic phenomena going on too?
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:09 pm So, if one hears true dhamma which is words only or you think there is some sort of psychic phenomena going on too?
Er when I see this. It remind me about this passage:
MN 56 wrote: ... You’ve been converted by the ascetic Gotama’s conversion illusion (magic)!
Āvaṭṭosi kho tvaṁ, gahapati, samaṇena gotamena āvaṭṭaniyā māyāyā”ti.

“Sir, this conversion illusion is excellent. (said by Upali)
“Bhaddikā, bhante, āvaṭṭanī māyā;

This conversion illusion is friendly!
kalyāṇī, bhante, āvaṭṭanī māyā;

If my loved ones—relatives and kin—were to be converted by this, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness.
piyā me, bhante, ñātisālohitā imāya āvaṭṭaniyā āvaṭṭeyyuṁ; piyānampi me assa ñātisālohitānaṁ dīgharattaṁ hitāya sukhāya;
...
but in fact, it is due to this. Which I have mentioned above.

When one hear true dhamma with eager ear, the hindrances that block true wisdom will not be present, the 7 awakening factors will present (all N8FP will be present as well including jhana). It is possible to enter the stream or higher depends on each individual faculties development. Most people will enter the stream first.

No nivaranas blocking means one has jhana (Samma Samadhi).
SN 46.38 wrote:Mendicants, sometimes a noble disciple pays attention, applies the mind, focus wholeheartedly, and actively listens to the teaching. At such a time the five hindrances are absent, and the seven awakening factors are fully developed.

Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako aṭṭhiṁ katvā manasi katvā sabbaṁ cetaso samannāharitvā ohitasoto dhammaṁ suṇāti, imassa pañca nīvaraṇā tasmiṁ samaye na honti. Satta bojjhaṅgā tasmiṁ samaye bhāvanāpāripūriṁ gacchanti.
SN 46.9 wrote:“Mendicants, these seven awakening factors don’t arise to be developed and cultivated except when a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha has appeared.

“Sattime, bhikkhave, bojjhaṅgā bhāvitā bahulīkatā anuppannā uppajjanti, nāññatra tathāgatassa pātubhāvā arahato sammāsambuddhassa.
SN 46.3 wrote:.. When the seven awakening factors are developed and cultivated in this way they can expect seven fruits and benefits.

What seven?

They attain enlightenment early on in this very life.

If not, they attain enlightenment at the time of death.
...

If not, with the ending of the five lower fetters they head upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm.

When the seven awakening factors are developed and cultivated in this way these are the seven fruits and benefits they can expect.”
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:41 pm but in fact, it is due to this. Which I have mentioned above.

When one hear true dhamma with eager ear, the hindrances that block true wisdom will not be present, the 7 awakening factors will present (all N8FP will be present as well including jhana). It is possible to enter the stream or higher depends on each individual faculties development. Most people will enter the stream first.

No nivaranas blocking means one has jhana (Samma Samadhi).
SN 46.38 wrote:Mendicants, sometimes a noble disciple pays attention, applies the mind, focus wholeheartedly, and actively listens to the teaching. At such a time the five hindrances are absent, and the seven awakening factors are fully developed.

Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako aṭṭhiṁ katvā manasi katvā sabbaṁ cetaso samannāharitvā ohitasoto dhammaṁ suṇāti, imassa pañca nīvaraṇā tasmiṁ samaye na honti. Satta bojjhaṅgā tasmiṁ samaye bhāvanāpāripūriṁ gacchanti.
Yes, also sutta says sometimes. Its not a rule, that the five hindrances are absent and awakening factors are fully developed during listening the teachings.
Its not what i meant, when asking the question from you whether there are something more than the words when listening the teachings.

I asked it because you keep telling about hearing true teachings,
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:19 pm Anyway, it is ok to disagree because one still doesn’t know.
Hearing from you that the anagami doesn't return to kama realm, isn't a sign that you have true teachings. It just means you can read sutta what also everyone else can do.

I see you are enforcing the super high signs of mastery like the physical body changed, been there done that too back in the days i started out. But its that you seem not aware of cycles and how gradual the process to that is, you haven't mellowed, humbled by it yet. But perhaps i misjudge again, then sorry, but the way you speak of meditation and you keep saying about listening true dhamma first suggests that you are still dreaming about meditation and imagine when you start doing it then you will attain that physical body transformation tomorrow, if not tomorrow then next week..
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

you wrote:Its not what i meant, when asking the question from you whether there are something more than the words when listening the teachings.
It is aligning the ear to mano vinnana through yoniso manasikara. This make the mano & citta go into samadhi temporarily off from 5 senses that are outside bound. Usually the manovinnana is always go outwards to 5 senses due to ayonisonamasikara.

When one hear through true dhamma, it is like you forget about time as well. It is so peaceful that you don't care about 5 senses.
SN 55.30 wrote:...Sir, it is time to bathe.”
“nahānakālo, bhante”ti.

“Enough now, my man, with that exterior bath.
“Alaṁ dāni, bhaṇe, etena bāhirena nahānena.

This interior bathing will do for me, that is,
Alamidaṁ ajjhattaṁ nahānaṁ bhavissati, yadidaṁ—

confidence in the Buddha.”
bhagavati pasādo”ti.
Anyway, the body transformation occur due to let go and sanna switch. It is not through manipulation and there is no going back after the transformation. Not through exercise etc. But body is just body, can't get to attach by it, otherwise can't move on. Will give up food as well, only eat as needed.

Anyway jhana (samma samadhi) explanation is very diverse so difficult to capture in short text. One can use the perfected restraint angle to explain, others may use at the physical aspect. Others from mind angle. But they are tie together.

Well like i said, only needed Sutta to confirm people who is in the path.

But even sutta people can be confused as well, so got to verify all of them as well.

If they go to Abhidhamma, i know they don't know yet for NOW. Because i haven't seen anyone who know the higher teaching yet from that side.

But I'm still open if i heard someone with high confident that Buddha is his only teacher. I would like to see personally.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:48 am
you wrote:Its not what i meant, when asking the question from you whether there are something more than the words when listening the teachings.
It is aligning the ear to mano vinnana through yoniso manasikara. This make the mano & citta go into samadhi temporarily off from 5 senses that are outside bound. Usually the manovinnana is always go outwards to 5 senses due to ayonisonamasikara.
I could simply lay open a book about cultivation. And read.
Taoist Yoga..transl. by Charles Luk wrote:Count from one to ten and then from ten to hundred breaths with the heart (mind) following the counting to prevent it from wandering outside.
When the heart and breathing is in unison, this is called 'locking up the monkey heart' and 'tying up the running horse of intellect'.
if you know what the 'outside wandering mind' entails, you can simply keep it in, without counting etc. And i presume it also means being obsessed with the thinking mind about what people have typed on internet.
Joe.c wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:48 am Anyway, the body transformation occur due to let go and sanna switch. It is not through manipulation and there is no going back after the transformation. Not through exercise etc. But body is just body, can't get to attach by it, otherwise can't move on. Will give up food as well, only eat as needed.
there's cultivation, essentially the same thing as the other two line quote but elaborated with even what happen if things are not done right, its good text.
Taoist Yoga wrote: Mindfulness should give way to mindlessness so that the heart(the seat of nature) is empty(of all stirrings), becomes incorporeal and spiritual
and beyond birth and death.
If you want to get rid of wrong thoughts you should hold on to correct awareness and they will cease of themselves so that your heart will be like
the bright moon in space, immaculate and containing no foreign matter. As the heart gets used to this condition it will be free from all illusions culminating in the death of the heart and resurrection of the spirit.
For if spirit is not settled the light of(essential) nature does not manifest and if intellect is not frozen passions cannot be cut off. In this state of serenity when the inmost vibrates of itself you should immediately take advantage of its vibration to gather the microcosmic alchemical agent. This is called 'leading the fire'(to gather the agent).
If know history then that time the alchemy was taken over by budhist teachings
-----
bonus quote about same thing,
wrote:The Tan Chin says:
Let all thought come and go;awareness
Of them without clinging is true training.
All attachments are wrong whereas
Intertness to false voidness leads.
awareness without clinging, could be the anupādā.
mn140 wrote:They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaṁyeva parinibbāyati.
perhaps the attachments mentioned in that above verses by The Tan Chin are the ayatanas,
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:They understand:
So evaṁ pajānāti:
‘If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly.
‘imañce ahaṁ upekkhaṁ evaṁ parisuddhaṁ evaṁ pariyodātaṁ ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ upasaṁhareyyaṁ, tadanudhammañca cittaṁ bhāveyyaṁ;
But that is conditioned.
saṅkhatametaṁ.
from pranaparamita suttas the false void is addressed too. I think it is good to have read something from here and there.
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