LGBT question.

[SarathW]

LGBT question.

I saw a Sutta in Sinhalese that that a same-sex monk was trying to persuade other monks to have sex with him.
What is the Sutta reference?

[TRobinson465]

LGBT question.

I saw a Sutta in Sinhalese that that a same-sex monk was trying to persuade other monks to have sex with him.
What is the Sutta reference?

Vinaya not sutta.

The Story of the Prohibition of the Ordination of Pandaka

At that time a Pandaka had been ordained in a residence of monks. He went to the young monks and encouraged them thus, 'Come all of you and assault 23 me." The monks spoke aggressively, "Pandaka, you will surely be ruined. pandaka, you will surely be [spiritually] destroyed. Of what benefit will it be?" Having been spoken to aggressively by the monks, he went to some large, stout novices and encouraged them thus, "Come all of you and assault me." The novices spoke aggressively. "Pandaka, you will surely be ruined. Pandaka, you will surely be destroyed. Of what benefit will it be?" Having been spoken to aggressively by the novices, the pandaka went to men who tend elephants and horses and spoke to them thus. "Come all of you and assault me." 24 The men who tend elephants and horses assaulted him and then publicly blamed, rebuked and criticised [the sangha], saying, "A samana of the lineage of the son of the Sakyas is a pandaka and these samanas, even those who are not pandakas themselves, assault the ordained pandakas. When such is the case these samanas are not practising brahmacariya (celibacy)." The monks heard the men who tend elephants and who tend horses blaming, rebuking and criticising thus and informed the Blessed One of the matter.

The Blessed One then ordered the monks, "Behold monks. a pandaka is one who is not to be ordained. Monks should not give them ordination and those who have been ordained must be made to disrobe" (Vinaya, Vol. 4, pp. 141-142).

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[SarathW]

Thanks TR

The Blessed One then ordered the monks, "Behold monks. a pandaka is one who is not to be ordained. Monks should not give them ordination and those who have been ordained must be made to disrobe" (Vinaya, Vol. 4, pp. 141-142).

Wasn't Buddha unreasonable to blacklist all Pandakas for one wrongdoing by just one pandaka?
What is the justification here?

[dharmacorps]

Wasn't Buddha unreasonable to blacklist all Pandakas for one wrongdoing by just one pandaka?
What is the justification here?

Do you know what a Pandaka is? It is not a gay person.

[SarathW]

Wasn't Buddha unreasonable to blacklist all Pandakas for one wrongdoing by just one pandaka?
What is the justification here?

Do you know what a Pandaka is? It is not a gay person.

What is it?

[TRobinson465]

Theres actually some debate over what a pandaka actually is. I've heard some teachers say it means homosexuals, others say it means hermoprodites. The commentary says it is eunuchs and intersex people. Homosexuals are a pandaka but they are not in the prohibited category of Pandakas (according to the commentary)

According to the Commentary, there are five kinds of paṇḍakas, two of whom do not come under this prohibition: voyeurs and those whose sexual fever is allayed by performing fellatio. The three who do come under this prohibition are: castrated men (eunuchs), those born neuter, and half-time paṇḍakas (those with the sexual desires of a paṇḍaka during the dark fortnight, and none during the bright fortnight (?)).

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0054.html

Which i think is pretty interesting cuz the origin story heavily implies the pandaka in question was homosexual. So i can definitely see why some people and teachers think that homosexuals shouldnt be ordained.

[TRobinson465]

Thanks TR

The Blessed One then ordered the monks, "Behold monks. a pandaka is one who is not to be ordained. Monks should not give them ordination and those who have been ordained must be made to disrobe" (Vinaya, Vol. 4, pp. 141-142).

Wasn't Buddha unreasonable to blacklist all Pandakas for one wrongdoing by just one pandaka?
What is the justification here?

He probably saw that this or other similar things may be an issue again if he kept allowing pandakas into the Sangha (even if not every single pandaka would do such a thing). It seems a bit harsh yeah but its not that out of character for how he sets rules.

[Eko Care]

It seems
Pandaka = Not Straight

Correction :
Pandaka seems a male with non-normative male sexuality
Ubhatobyanjanaka seems a person having signs of both genders.

[SarathW]

It seems
Pandaka = Not Straight

Google "Buddhism Pandaka meaning"

https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu ... 0sexuality.

[Eko Care]

Google "Buddhism Pandaka meaning"

Yes, It seems "non normative" is better than the modern usage of "non straight".

[Ceisiwr]

Google "Buddhism Pandaka meaning"

Yes, It seems "non normative" is better than the modern usage of "non straight".

What’s “non-normative”?

[SDC]

Seems like a pandaka is anyone with a sexual condition that would make it difficult for them to practice. To me, it never seemed limited to same-sex tendencies, but describes those who are heavily weighed down by a condition of sexual trauma and/or uncontrollable sexual desire. In contemporary times, a porn addict or those who are otherwise hyper sexual, with illicit intentions behind their ordination, would likely be considered a pandaka no matter what their sexual orientation.

[TRobinson465]

Seems like a pandaka is anyone with a sexual condition that would make it difficult for them to practice. To me, it never seemed limited to same-sex tendencies, but describes those who are heavily weighed down by a condition of sexual trauma and/or uncontrollable sexual desire. In contemporary times, a porn addict or those who are otherwise hyper sexual, with illicit intentions behind their ordination, would likely be considered a pandaka no matter what their sexual orientation.

The commentary describes 5 pandikas. "Voyeurs and those whose sexual fever is allayed by performing fellatio, castrated men (eunuchs), those born neuter, and half-time paṇḍakas (those with the sexual desires of a paṇḍaka during the dark fortnight, and none during the bright fortnight"

So sexual deviants, homosexuals, eunuchs, intersex and whatever the modern equivalent of the last one is. The first two pandakas actually are allowed to ordain if u follow the commentary so difficulty alone doesn't seem to be the criteria. A porn addict would probably fall under voyeur/sexual deviants. Who are allowed pandakas.

[SDC]

Seems like a pandaka is anyone with a sexual condition that would make it difficult for them to practice. To me, it never seemed limited to same-sex tendencies, but describes those who are heavily weighed down by a condition of sexual trauma and/or uncontrollable sexual desire. In contemporary times, a porn addict or those who are otherwise hyper sexual, with illicit intentions behind their ordination, would likely be considered a pandaka no matter what their sexual orientation.

The commentary describes 5 pandikas. "Voyeurs and those whose sexual fever is allayed by performing fellatio, castrated men (eunuchs), those born neuter, and half-time paṇḍakas (those with the sexual desires of a paṇḍaka during the dark fortnight, and none during the bright fortnight"

So sexual deviants, homosexuals, eunuchs, intersex and whatever the modern equivalent of the last one is. The first two pandakas actually are allowed to ordain if u follow the commentary so difficulty alone doesn't seem to be the criteria. A porn addict would probably fall under voyeur/sexual deviants. Who are allowed pandakas.

All gay men have a fever for fellatio? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

[TRobinson465]

Seems like a pandaka is anyone with a sexual condition that would make it difficult for them to practice. To me, it never seemed limited to same-sex tendencies, but describes those who are heavily weighed down by a condition of sexual trauma and/or uncontrollable sexual desire. In contemporary times, a porn addict or those who are otherwise hyper sexual, with illicit intentions behind their ordination, would likely be considered a pandaka no matter what their sexual orientation.

The commentary describes 5 pandikas. "Voyeurs and those whose sexual fever is allayed by performing fellatio, castrated men (eunuchs), those born neuter, and half-time paṇḍakas (those with the sexual desires of a paṇḍaka during the dark fortnight, and none during the bright fortnight"

So sexual deviants, homosexuals, eunuchs, intersex and whatever the modern equivalent of the last one is. The first two pandakas actually are allowed to ordain if u follow the commentary so difficulty alone doesn't seem to be the criteria. A porn addict would probably fall under voyeur/sexual deviants. Who are allowed pandakas.

All gay men have a fever for fellatio? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Im going to go out on a limb and say that that was just a saying for homosexual men and probably doesnt only apply narrowly to men who have a fever for fellatio. In the same way that the 5th precept doesnt narrowly only mean alcohol even tho its the only thing the Buddha explicitly mentions and probably includes things like doing heroin and cocaine as well even tho the texts never mention heroin and cocaine specifically. Im not really a fan of narrow textualist readings of the texts.