paṭissati

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Sekha
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paṭissati

Post by Sekha »

does anyone know if it is correct to consider paṭissati as an intensified form of sati?
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It is always good to give the context: Satipatthana Sutta
‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati

Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. (Soma Thera)
Here, paṭissati is translated as "remembrance."
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Cittasanto »

I think it is translated the same as sati usually,
yāvad-eva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya,
for the purpose of fully developing knowledge and mindfulness,
if I remember correctly I followed Venerable Anandajotis translation with the rendering of that term, the term as I can find quickly now is patissata meaning thoughtful; mindful.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Sekha »

I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?
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Re: paṭissati

Post by daverupa »

Sekha wrote:I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?
It can also mean "(c)...setting off in a comparison" or "(d) close contact", which might be read as a call for comparative sati ('earlier state X, now state Y') in the satipatthana context, perhaps for the purpose of noting idapaccayata.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Cittasanto »

Sekha wrote:I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?
what I have rendered as "developed" is actually rendered by Ven. Anandajoti as measure, and he uses full presumably for pati.
"a full measure of mindfulness " (from memory) for patissatimattāya.

I am working from memory here and remember I had some issue trying to put this line (as I quoted above) into words.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Sekha »

so, it seems, Bhante Anandajyoti would agree with my assumption

next time I go to bukit Mertajam, I should visit him!
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Cittasanto »

Sekha wrote:so, it seems, Bhante Anandajyoti would agree with my assumption

next time I go to bukit Mertajam, I should visit him!
It would seam that he would, I trust his expertise in this area and can not think of any other word he would use for full in the line above.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Assaji »

Sekha wrote:does anyone know if it is correct to consider paṭissati as an intensified form of sati?
No. The prefix can hardly be translated in English. So 'paṭissati' means almost the same as 'sati'.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Atthakatha explains:

Sampajāno paṭissatoti sampajānapaññāya ceva satiyā ca yutto.

Paṭissatoti paṭissatisaṅkhātāya satiyā yutto.

'paṭi' here is somewhat akin to English 'near':

Gāthāsu ānāpāne paṭissatoti ānāpānanimittasmiṃ paṭi paṭi sato, upaṭṭhitassatīti attho.

Compare with:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In some cases, it's remembrance to be aware:

Tattha na so rajjati rūpesu, rūpaṃ disvā paṭissatoti yo puggalo rūpaṃ disvā āpāthagataṃ rūpārammaṇaṃ cakkhudvārikena viññāṇasantānena gahetvā catusampajaññavasena sampajānakāritāya paṭissato hoti, so rūpārammaṇesu na rajjati rāgaṃ na janeti, aññadatthu virattacitto vedeti, rūpārammaṇamhi samudayādito yathābhūtaṃ pajānanto nibbindati, nibbindanto taṃ tatthuppannavedanañca virattacitto vedeti, tathābhūto ca tañca najjhosa tiṭṭhatīti taṃ rūpārammaṇaṃ sammadeva virattacittatāya ajjhosāya na tiṭṭhati ‘‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’’ti taṇhāmānadiṭṭhivasena nābhinivisati.

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Re: paṭissati

Post by Sekha »

There must be at least a slight difference in meaning, but I guess it is not easy to evaluate what that word may have meant in its usual context 25 centuries ago.

What about the following line though:

if I compare with the words pada & paṭipada:
pada means "step, stride; footprint, trace, track, vestige, mark; a foot; footing, station, site, place;" so something somewhat static
paṭipada means "ingress, access, way, step, course, progress, practice, conduct;" something in motion

so its seems in that case, paṭi shifts slightly the meaning by adding the connotation of movement, evolution, progression, operation, being followed-up

if paṭi had the same meaning in paṭissati, it would probably shift the meaning to mean a followed-up sati, ie. operating, stable, steady sati, whereas just sati can also sometimes be weak and somewhat flickering

such an interpretation really seems to make sense in the context of mhstp (sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya) since the purpose is indeed to get the sati to become strong and steady.
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Re: paṭissati

Post by dhammachakka »

a discussion on "paṭissatimattāya" is here:

https://groups.io/g/dsg/topic/99241343#175450

any insights, comments, references that can lead to clarity on the experiential understanding of " PAṬISSATI " [ BARE AWARENESS ] is most welcome.
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Re: paṭissati

Post by dhammachakka »

(update of my ANALYSIS)

SUMMARY: i choose to translate 'paṭissatimattāya' as 'self-reflective awareness'.

======

1. buddha Himself has mentioned "paṭissatimattāya" as an intermediate stage between "ñāṇamattāya" and "anissito ca viharati" (anatta) in the mahasatipaṭṭhāna sutta.

2. i choose to translate 'paṭissatimattāya' as 'self-reflective awareness'.

COMMENTS:
'paṭissatimattāya' is not memory or rememberance as PTS dictionary & some scholars assert.

not is it simply 'mindfulness' (sati) as PTS dictionary and some scholars assert.

calling paṭissatimattāya as 'mere awareness' as ñāṇamattāya as 'mere understanding' (VRI) is not proper because ñāṇamattāya itself is mere awareness / mere understanding (of anicca-lakkhaṇa).

calling paṭissatimattāya as 'merely bare-awareness' i.e. defining paṭissati as bare-awareness is misleading and leaves "bare" undefined in the development of vipassanā-ñāna.

3. the mālukyaputta Sutta and bāhiya sutta offers buddha's detailed explanation about the nature of the awareness (sati) that reflects on itself. you may check.

4. 'paṭissatimattāya' is self-reflective awareness of the ñāṇamattāya state.

'ñāṇamattāya' = mere awareness (of anicca-lakkhaṇa) / mere understanding (of anicca-lakkhaṇa) / mere observation (of anicca-lakkhaṇa) / mere anicca-ñāṇa / observer-is-observed as 'mere anicca-ñāṇa'.

paṭissatimattāya = merely self-reflective awareness (of anicca-lakkhaṇa). here the awareness (sati) turns further inwards and is 'aware of itself' or the 'awareness reflects on itself' (being merely-aware of anicca-lakkhaṇa).

'paṭissatimattāya' is the further advanced stage of 'ñāṇamattāya' where the awareness is aware of its mere-awareness of anicca-lakkhaṇa and due to further deepening nibbida-ñāṇa, the fixation of awareness on anicca-lakkhaṇa falls away leading to dwelling in support-less emptiness or anatta (anissito ca viharati).

5. just as meghiya sutta confirms, anicca-saññā develops into anatta-saññā. 'paṭissatimattāya' is the intermediate stage of transition from anicca-sañña to anatta-sañña whereby the subtle attachment of sati with the object of anicca-lakkhaṇa is also transcended leading to dwelling in support-less emptiness (anatta).

6. what is written above is very much verifiable by experiential insight.

7. RE: "Punappunaṃ saraṇato anussaraṇavasena anussati. Abhimukhaṃ gantvā viya saraṇato paṭisaraṇavasena paṭissati". (Mahāniddesa-aṭṭhakathā 1. Kāmasuttaniddesavaṇṇanā)

here, "Abhimukhaṃ" may be interpreted as "facing oneself" or "facing the kammaṭṭhāna" or "self-reflective awareness of the object of kammaṭṭhāna" in order to justify the difference between "anussati" in the preceding line and "paṭissati".

8. i seek the help of learned pāli scholars to kindly consider contemplating & translating the following three quotes. it may help to present evidence about the true experential meaning of'paṭissatimattāya'

A. "Gāthāsu ānāpāne paṭissatoti ānāpānanimittasmiṃ paṭi paṭi sato, upaṭṭhitassatīti attho".
- Asubhānupassīsuttavaṇṇanā

B. "Sampajānoti sattaṭṭhāniyena sampajaññena samannāgato. Patissatoti kammaṭṭhānaṃ phātiṃ, gametuṃ samatthāya satiyā patissato satokārī".
- Itivuttaka-aṭṭhakathā, Ekakanipāto, Dutiyasekhasuttavaṇṇanā

C. Punappunaṃ saraṇato anussaraṇavasena anussati. Abhimukhaṃ gantvā viya saraṇato paṭisaraṇavasena paṭissati".
- Mahāniddesa-aṭṭhakathā 1. Kāmasuttaniddesavaṇṇanā

9. discussions with those who are not convinced was helpful in compelling me to find better words and explanations for 'paṭissatimattāya' and realizing that it has already been explained in deep detail by the buddha Himself.

with veneration to the sangha, deep respect and gratitude for all dhamma scholars & much mettā for everyone,

manish
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Re: paṭissati

Post by dhammachakka »

correction:
SUMMARY: i choose to translate 'paṭissatimattāya' as merely 'self-reflective awareness'.
paṭissati = self-reflective awareness
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Re: paṭissati

Post by Gwi II »

Sekha wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:43 am does anyone know if it is correct to consider paṭissati as an intensified form of sati?
Dhammasaṅgaṇī:
Katamā tasmiṃ samaye sammāsati hoti?
Yā tasmiṃ samaye sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā sati satindriyaṃ satibalaṃ sammāsati–ayaṃ tasmiṃ samaye sammāsati hoti.



Sammāsati = paṭissati (process of making aware)

Sati = mindfulness --> concern (focus)
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Theraṽādå&Ṽibhajjaṽādå, the rest are
nonsakaṽādins!"
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