sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:42 am Greetings,

I'm unsure whether this Sutta has been mentioned yet...

SN 35.117
Friends, when the Blessed One rose from his seat and entered his dwelling after reciting a synopsis in brief without expounding the meaning in detail—that is: ‘Therefore, bhikkhus, that base should be understood, where the eye ceases and perception of forms fades away…. That base should be understood, where the mind ceases and perception of mental phenomena fades away. That base should be understood’—I understand the detailed meaning of this synopsis as follows: This was stated by the Blessed One, friends, with reference to the cessation of the six sense bases (salayatananirodha).
To anyone who adopts the Buddhaghosan 3-lifetime model of dependent origination.

How do you account for the cessation of the eye, if eye is the fleshy physical thing you regard it to be?

How can that base be known, if according to you, it only ceases at death?

:thanks:
This is pretty simple to answer really. The Arhat who is truly liberated knows that he is truly liberated, and thus knows the consequences of his liberation. Knowing the consequences of true liberation, he knows that, in the future, there will not be another six sense bases with associated contacts, feelings, etc.

If you don't believe that certain things are set in stone, that certain people can know the future knowing that certain things are "set in stone" as a matter of consequence and inevitability, then of course the Dharma as it has been traditionally passed down by the Samgha will never be verifiable to you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do not find satisfaction in your explanation, but that is not your concern.

Since you have inferred that the cessation of eye is an event that occurs at death, how do you understand "fading away" of the eye?

SN 35.155
“Bhikkhu, if one teaches the Dhamma for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is a speaker on the Dhamma. If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the Dhamma. If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life.
Since you have inferred that the cessation of eye is an event that occurs at death, how can its cessation have occurred by way of non-clinging for a "bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life"?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I wonder why Ven Bodhi is reading it as "fading away." I see "dispassion" when I try to look the word up. Maybe I'm missing something before my coffee.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:51 am
If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life.
what fades away is delight concerning the eye


the eye itself is not fading away
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by equilibrium »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:51 am Greetings Coëmgenu,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do not find satisfaction in your explanation, but that is not your concern.

Since you have inferred that the cessation of eye is an event that occurs at death, how do you understand "fading away" of the eye?

SN 35.155
“Bhikkhu, if one teaches the Dhamma for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is a speaker on the Dhamma. If one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards the eye, for its fading away and cessation, one can be called a bhikkhu who is practising in accordance with the Dhamma. If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life.
Since you have inferred that the cessation of eye is an event that occurs at death, how can its cessation have occurred by way of non-clinging for a "bhikkhu who has attained Nibbāna in this very life"?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well….. that fading and cessation would be the moment (in this very life well before body death) when one goes beyond the ALL. ….. so one can experience the unconditioned … Nibbana. …. which is the same meaning as “direct experience”. ….. where nothing is felt. ….. bliss.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Kumara »

SDC wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:23 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:17 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:12 pm I just found this in the Saṃyuktāgama:(SĀ 957)
For comparison, its parallel, SN 44.9:
There was perplexity in me, Master Gotama, there was doubt: ‘How is the Dhamma of the ascetic Gotama to be understood?’”

<snip>

“And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?”

“When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel.”
This of course flies in the face of Theravadin orthodox idea of no intermediate existence. Someone brought this up to Pa Auk Sayadaw for his opinion, and he decided to re-translate the whole sutta. Here's the relevant transcript of the audio:
Then he asked another question: “yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpeti?

This is another question: “When a being throw away this body, then that being also does not reborn in one of [the] plane. What is the reason for such a case?” This is his question only.

At that time buddha gave answer: “yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hoti.”

When a being throw away this body, but he does not reborn in one of plane, at the time main cause is taṇhā. Because of taṇhā, he is not reborn in one of plane.
What do you think?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by confusedlayman »

it disappears from first person experience if u r still alive... during sleep and during jhana it disappears
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by SDC »

Kumara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:00 am
SDC wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:23 pm […
This of course flies in the face of Theravadin orthodox idea of no intermediate existence. Someone brought this up to Pa Auk Sayadaw for his opinion, and he decided to re-translate the whole sutta. Here's the relevant transcript of the audio:
Then he asked another question: “yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpeti?

This is another question: “When a being throw away this body, then that being also does not reborn in one of [the] plane. What is the reason for such a case?” This is his question only.

At that time buddha gave answer: “yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hoti.”

When a being throw away this body, but he does not reborn in one of plane, at the time main cause is taṇhā. Because of taṇhā, he is not reborn in one of plane.
What do you think?
(Added emphasis)

Hi Bhante,

Seems to me that craving is the endurance. It is the intermediacy between bodies, and the reason that there is the endless wandering on. So, I’m not sure why there would be any need to describe it as the reason for not being reborn. The sutta just seems to be saying that when there has yet to be a new body, craving is the sustenance/fuel. In other words, “yet to be a new body” = there does not have to be a body for craving to be, nor for samsara to endure.

Edit: All in all, it is probably grossly inaccurate to even call it intermediacy. The wandering on is there in all directions, so there is technically no “in between state”. The whole of the experience whether it be the current, previous or future body, indicates an endurance of craving and suffering. That aspect is beginningless, and from that point of view, there is only just the one aimless state of wandering.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Kumara »

SDC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm Seems to me that craving is the endurance. It is the intermediacy between bodies, and the reason that there is the endless wandering on. So, I’m not sure why there would be any need to describe it as the reason for not being reborn. The sutta just seems to be saying that when there has yet to be a new body, craving is the sustenance/fuel. In other words, “yet to be a new body” = there does not have to be a body for craving to be, nor for samsara to endure.
He has obviously distorted the meaning. Seems to me he was trying to avoid having to deal with the contradiction.

Interestingly, the commentary to the sutta ignored this part.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

SDC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm Seems to me that craving is the endurance. It is the intermediacy between bodies, and the reason that there is the endless wandering on. So, I’m not sure why there would be any need to describe it as the reason for not being reborn. The sutta just seems to be saying that when there has yet to be a new body, craving is the sustenance/fuel. In other words, “yet to be a new body” = there does not have to be a body for craving to be, nor for samsara to endure.
This also implies that the sense bases don't completely disappear without a physical body while in the in-between state sustained by craving.

“And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?”

“When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel.”
Compared to this, sense bases disappear for the very last time due to absence of craving.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Then he asked another question: “yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpeti?

This is another question: “When a being throw away this body, then that being also does not reborn in one of [the] plane. What is the reason for such a case?” This is his question only.

At that time buddha gave answer: “yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hoti.”

When a being throw away this body, but he does not reborn in one of plane, at the time main cause is taṇhā. Because of taṇhā, he is not reborn in one of plane.
This should read, it is because of tanha that he will be reborn in one of the planes.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Kumara wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:09 am
SDC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm Seems to me that craving is the endurance. It is the intermediacy between bodies, and the reason that there is the endless wandering on. So, I’m not sure why there would be any need to describe it as the reason for not being reborn. The sutta just seems to be saying that when there has yet to be a new body, craving is the sustenance/fuel. In other words, “yet to be a new body” = there does not have to be a body for craving to be, nor for samsara to endure.
He has obviously distorted the meaning. Seems to me he was trying to avoid having to deal with the contradiction.

Interestingly, the commentary to the sutta ignored this part.
Perhaps the issue is the implication that craving depends on a living body, but it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Craving depends on feeling, sure, but the aggregates, in general, don’t necessarily depend on a living body. A living body is required to discern the aggregates and craving, but it is clearly not required for either to endure. This is definitely a tricky thing to consider, but I think the broader view of experience as whole - no matter which birth is being consider (past, present or future) - allows for the concept of endurance to emerge as something that remains on account of not being free from suffering. That is a massive consideration, but in the very least it is a single broad point of view that does not hold the attention to one birth. When we consider how this perspective was addressed in the suttas (for those capable of recollecting past births) we find that simile of the man walking from village to village being able to recollect the particulars of each. In other words, it was a single journey; an aimless wandering on fueled by craving.

Going out on a limb, it is unlikely that this is something that is directly perceived during death, but is simply the reason that the breakdown of one body does not imply freedom from craving in any way shape or form.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:44 am
SDC wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm Seems to me that craving is the endurance. It is the intermediacy between bodies, and the reason that there is the endless wandering on. So, I’m not sure why there would be any need to describe it as the reason for not being reborn. The sutta just seems to be saying that when there has yet to be a new body, craving is the sustenance/fuel. In other words, “yet to be a new body” = there does not have to be a body for craving to be, nor for samsara to endure.
This also implies that the sense bases don't completely disappear without a physical body while in the in-between state sustained by craving.
See my thoughts above. I don’t think the description is meant to describe a direct perception of craving, but is more of an overall description of why there is endurance. That’s not to say it is a situation of “no experience”, but it’s difficult to say what it is.
pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:44 am This should read, it is because of tanha that he will be reborn in one of the planes.
Exactly.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Sasha_A »

The difference between what your body is now and what it was just a moment ago, and between death and rebirth is only in the amount of perceived change from the very limited perspective of a particular being. But is there any difference between these two cases in terms of dukkha and the cause of dukkha? - No: if there is anicca in the presence of ignorance and craving, then there is also existence and there is dukkha. Until the craving fades away, there will be existence and dukkha. The extent of change is only a field for unnecessary speculation, all that matters is that change will definitely happen and it will not happen at your will.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

Sasha_A wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:59 pm The difference between what your body is now and what it was just a moment ago, and between death and rebirth is only in the amount of perceived change from the very limited perspective of a particular being. But is there any difference between these two cases in terms of dukkha and the cause of dukkha? - No: if there is anicca in the presence of ignorance and craving, then there is also existence and there is dukkha. Until the craving fades away, there will be existence and dukkha. The extent of change is only a field for unnecessary speculation, all that matters is that change will definitely happen and it will not happen at your will.
One should enquire-"Craving for what?" "Does the sense base eventually disappear without that craving?"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...

"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...

"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...

"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...



""He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Kumara »

SDC wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 pm
pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:44 am This should read, it is because of tanha that he will be reborn in one of the planes.
Exactly.
Not exactly. The craving for rebirth is different from the craving for existence. Attainers of nibbāna upon landing had the latter but not the first.
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