What defines action?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sha Bac
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What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

If you know someone is going to assault you, is it self-defense if you pre-emptively attack them? What defines that?

Or, suppose you intend to borrow something, and you take it without asking. Is that theft? Does your intention determine it, or is it determined by something else? What if you intend to borrow it, but you know it could be perceived as theft?
SarathW
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Re: What defines action?

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:21 am If you know someone is going to assault you, is it self-defense if you pre-emptively attack them? What defines that?

Or, suppose you intend to borrow something, and you take it without asking. Is that theft? Does your intention determine it, or is it determined by something else? What if you intend to borrow it, but you know it could be perceived as theft?
According to Buddhism your intention matters.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:31 am
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:21 am If you know someone is going to assault you, is it self-defense if you pre-emptively attack them? What defines that?

Or, suppose you intend to borrow something, and you take it without asking. Is that theft? Does your intention determine it, or is it determined by something else? What if you intend to borrow it, but you know it could be perceived as theft?
According to Buddhism your intention matters.
So is the action there and you're intending it or not, or is the action created by what you're intending?
SarathW
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Re: What defines action?

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:16 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:31 am
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:21 am If you know someone is going to assault you, is it self-defense if you pre-emptively attack them? What defines that?

Or, suppose you intend to borrow something, and you take it without asking. Is that theft? Does your intention determine it, or is it determined by something else? What if you intend to borrow it, but you know it could be perceived as theft?
According to Buddhism your intention matters.
So is the action there and you're intending it or not, or is the action created by what you're intending?
Can you do anything without intention?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:11 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:16 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:31 am

According to Buddhism your intention matters.
So is the action there and you're intending it or not, or is the action created by what you're intending?
Can you do anything without intention?
I think so. But when you do things without intention, your life is very impulsive, whimsical, unpredictable. I don't think you can do anything without effort, but I think you can do things without intention.
SarathW
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Re: What defines action?

Post by SarathW »

Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:29 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:11 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:16 am

So is the action there and you're intending it or not, or is the action created by what you're intending?
Can you do anything without intention?
I think so. But when you do things without intention, your life is very impulsive, whimsical, unpredictable. I don't think you can do anything without effort, but I think you can do things without intention.
Can you tell me what you can do without intention?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:35 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:29 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:11 pm
Can you do anything without intention?
I think so. But when you do things without intention, your life is very impulsive, whimsical, unpredictable. I don't think you can do anything without effort, but I think you can do things without intention.
Can you tell me what you can do without intention?
I think a lot of advancement and progress is made without intent. Think of diffusion of responsibility in groups. Suppose you ask questions and propose ideas out of curiosity. Curiosity is the impetus, not intent...
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:35 pm
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:29 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:11 pm
Can you do anything without intention?
I think so. But when you do things without intention, your life is very impulsive, whimsical, unpredictable. I don't think you can do anything without effort, but I think you can do things without intention.
Can you tell me what you can do without intention?
I don't really understand what that has to do with what I asked...is the action there and you intend it, or is it made by your intent? I guess I see what you're saying. Every action is intended.

But are there conditions which determine how to classify actions? If you know someone is going to attack you, can you preemptively attack them in self defense? Can you maintain that it was self defense? Or are there conditions for it that must be met in order to classify it as such?

Or suppose you intend to get laid. You may carry out behaviors that others may not view as "intending to get laid". But karma knows. Sometimes you can tell. Like if you observe a guy's actions in a certain context. So didn't he define-into-being an action with his intent?
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mjaviem
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Re: What defines action?

Post by mjaviem »

Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:21 am If you know someone is going to assault you, is it self-defense if you pre-emptively attack them? What defines that?
...
Of course, you intended to harm them (for a reason, I know). Intention defines action (or intentional action if you prefer to call it this way).
Adam1234 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:21 am ...
Or, suppose you intend to borrow something, and you take it without asking. Is that theft? Does your intention determine it, or is it determined by something else? What if you intend to borrow it, but you know it could be perceived as theft?
This is taking what is not given intently. Of course it's an action/intentional action. It's not that you didn't mean to take it. Planning to return it is also an action/intentional action. A mental action I would say. And if you intend to create a mental impression of you in the mind of others this is too an action you are doing.

AN 6.63 Thanissaro wrote:... Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect..

... Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṁ karoti—kāyena vācāya manasā.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

So suppose you are hitting a punching bag out of anger. And you have supernormal power to kill. And as you hit the bag, you intend to kill the person. You don't think anything of it. Then the person dies.

What does that mean?
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mjaviem
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Re: What defines action?

Post by mjaviem »

Adam1234 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:43 pm So suppose you are hitting a punching bag out of anger. And you have supernormal power to kill. And as you hit the bag, you intend to kill the person. You don't think anything of it. Then the person dies.

What does that mean?
It means we don't know why the person died. It means my murderous intention comes with consequences. I'm the heir of rhis intention to cause harm. It also means I need help concerning my belief in supernormal powers.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Sha Bac
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Sha Bac »

Does intention have a cognitive element? What I mean is, does intention entail belief in the efficacy of an action to carry out one's plans? Doesn't that make sense? What I mean is, if a person intends to kill, they have to know they're going to kill and also know that the action is going to lead to death. Without those cognitive factors, what is intent other than knowing the POSSIBILITY of the outcome?

If a person carries out an action with intent to kill, but they don't believe the action will lead to death or that they are even carrying out a killing act, they didn't ACT ON INTENT. isn't that right?

A person can pick up a gun and not believe it's loaded, and they can even shoot somebody in a place that they don't believe will lead to death. Minus those cognitive factors, there is intent, but there's no ACTING on the intent.

Is that right?
Citta Trust
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Re: What defines action?

Post by Citta Trust »

It is only ignorance and delussion that "permitss" is to do evil deeds while thinking its ok or that they mean nothing

Somewhere, pitentially deep down, there is a defilement(s) causing these unwhoelsome kammic actions

Hatred camouflages so well, as does sensual desire, the latter can disguise as goodness for one example

Keep walking the path, read The Suttas and practise in accordance with The Dhamma
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