Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Ceisiwr »

I've been looking at body part meditation, especially in DN 28 as it has a unique formulation of it
Firstly, some ascetic or brahmin—by dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right application of mind—experiences an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they examine their own body up from the soles of the feet and down from the tips of the hairs, wrapped in skin and full of many kinds of filth.‘In this body there is head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine.’ This is the first attainment of vision.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it. They examine a person’s bones with skin, flesh, and blood. This is the second attainment of vision.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it. They understand of a person that their stream of consciousness is consistent on both sides .This is the third attainment of vision.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it. They understand of a person that their stream of consciousness is consistent on both sides: not established in either this world or the next. This is the fourth attainment of vision.

This is unsurpassable when it comes to attainments of vision.
https://suttacentral.net/dn28/en/sujato ... ript=latin

Its interesting as it discusses the practice in ever more deeper levels, more than we see in other suttas. I also found this interesting, as it's similar to Sarvāstivādin texts which, when discussing foulness meditation, talk of contemplating the body until one visually strips away the flesh and sinews until there is only the white of the bones remaining. I'm also reminded of the Visuddhimagga, where it is said monks (and nuns I assume) are able to see everyone as nothing but a skeleton, given their mastery over perception. This made me want to look at the parallels. For this I looked at T 18 and DĀ 18. For DĀ 18 I used Charles Patton's translation here: https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... DA_18.html. For T 18 I had to rely on an AI translation, so please read with caution. Anyway I've put all three parallels into a table below. As you can see, there is quite a lot of correlation between these texts which reveals an outline for an early Buddhist practice of body part/foulness meditation. In all of them the meditator first needs to attain Jhāna to fully contemplate the body parts. This suggests to me that one uses the body part meditation both as a means to enter Jhāna and then whilst in it, as a means of insight whilst in said Jhāna. This is then followed by examining the body either by visually stripping away the flesh and sinews until only the bones are left, or by examining the body in terms of flesh, sinews and bones. After this the meditator then contemplates the foul nature of the body as it relates to this life and other lives, whilst also contemplating the conditioned nature of consciousness both in this life and future lives. In this regard we are reminded of the insight gained in DN 2
"When his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright, unblemished, free from defects, malleable, wieldy, steady and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He understands thus: ‘This is my body, having material form, composed of the four primary elements, originating from father and mother, built up out of rice and gruel, impermanent, subject to rubbing and pressing, to dissolution and dispersion. And this is my consciousness, supported by it and bound up with it.’
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pegembara
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by pegembara »

Imagine if you were born blind.
How do your experience the body? Earth, water, fire and wind.
Body parts doesn't even come into play.
Only wetness, squishiness, hardness and warmth, tactile sensations or motions come into play.
"'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property. 'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
rybka3
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by rybka3 »

the first paragraph of T18 in the table has the phrases "practice three meditations", which doesn't sound right to me. The Google Translate version of that sentence looks something like this:
It is said that the Buddha, the World-Honored One uses the base of his samadhi to contemplate the impure and detestable nature of the body.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Ceisiwr »

rybka3 wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:03 pm the first paragraph of T18 in the table has the phrases "practice three meditations", which doesn't sound right to me. The Google Translate version of that sentence looks something like this:
It is said that the Buddha, the World-Honored One uses the base of his samadhi to contemplate the impure and detestable nature of the body.
In some suttas there are 3 Jhanas, not 4
"It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life."

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Pulsar
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Ceisiwr: Please check out Sammasa sutta SN 12.66: version by VBB with its footnotes.
  • Exploring 32 body parts is labelled as wrong inward exploration
Some suttas in other parts of the Pali canon refer to meditation on body parts. It is another instance when the Pali canon contradicts itself. As you often admit on the forum. VBB has said Samyutta nikaya/Samyutta agama is closest to the Buddha. How should a meditator meditate if he is bent on ending suffering? On body parts?
Can you explain how contemplation of body parts can end suffering? SN 47.42 sorts out this matter, but it does not rely on body parts. It is discussed in detail in my post on
"Origination of suffering"
viewtopic.php?p=737172#p737172

Body part meditation is found in other nikayas or suttas labelled T.. etc. These were mostly written for those that were new to the doctrine. Many Buddhists, even today fail to understand the importance of SN 47.42, sutta on Samudaya.
  • Buddha did not depend on body parts to end suffering, he relied on the teaching of Dependent origination.
Abhidhamma scholars have included some of the practices that prevailed before the Buddha in MN, DN, AN and some other later agama sutras. Such information is not found in SA that belonged to the Mulasarvastivada tradition.
Arupa samapatthis practiced by Alara Kalama and Uddaka Rama Puttha found in sutta Pitaka is a prime example of teachings found in the nikayas that are not teachings of the Buddha.
Please read SN 35.105, where Buddha rejects these methods. I had discussed this a while ago on my Jhana thread. viewtopic.php?t=34757&start=750
With love :candle:
rybka3
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by rybka3 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 3:42 pm
rybka3 wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:03 pm the first paragraph of T 18 in the table has the phrases "practice three meditations", which doesn't sound right to me. The Google Translate version of that sentence looks something like this:
It is said that the Buddha, the World-Honored One uses the base of his samadhi to contemplate the impure and detestable nature of the body.
In some suttas there are 3 Jhanas, not 4
The T 18 sutta talk of "five (types of) meditations" tho. The sutta use the same word 三摩鉢底 (samadhi) for all words that AI translated as "meditation". If he talks about practicing three "meditations" and then goes on to list five, that obviously confuses listeners.
The T 22 sutta talks about "jhana" without using the word 三摩鉢底. In that sutta the Buddha use words like 禪 (Zen, jhana) and 一心 (citta ekaggata) to indicate "jhana".

Besides, talking about having a "base of samadhi" seems in line with the content of the other two parallels (DN 28, DA 18).
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Pulsar »

rybka wrote
the first paragraph of T18 in the table has the phrases "practice three meditations", which doesn't sound right to me.
It depends on in which context it is used.
You wrote
The Google Translate version of that sentence looks something like this:
It is said that the Buddha, the World-Honored One uses the base of his samadhi to contemplate the impure and detestable nature of the body.
I've read that the Chinese had issues with translating Sanskrit words. Kaya can be translated as a physical body, or a collection of mental events. Like imagined Rupa, vedana etc.
What exactly is a base of samadhi, according to the Chinese sutta?
There is no base of mind or samadhi in the earliest Buddhism. A base of mind appeared later in the literature influenced by Abhidhamma. Plenty of scripture in the canon is influenced by later buddhist thinkers.
Could it possibly mean for instance,
"meditate on the collection of greed, hatred and confusion, how it gains ground"
These qualities are of an
  • impure and detestable nature,
if you think of the body as a body of thoughts.
As long as we are plagued by these, real meditation to attain end of suffering cannot be attained.
Metta sutta comes to my mind
Contented, easily supportable, with
few duties, of light livelihood...
Controlled in senses, discreet
reserved, not greedily attached to family.
In our urgency to get to Nibbana, we forget what the priorities are, which Buddha clearly stated in the above sutta. There are no short cuts to Nibbana. Virtue counts. Absence of malice counts.
Sutta continues:
Endowed with insight, giving up attachment to sense desires
  • What insight is the sutta referring to?
Insight into "I" making. How to give up "I" making?
One who embarks on "meditation" needs to figure out how to give up sense desires. No meditation however sophisticated will work for one who is plagued by sense desire.
Did Buddha not say this about Prins Jayasena in MN?
With love :candle:
rybka3
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by rybka3 »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:18 pm
I've read that the Chinese had issues with translating Sanskrit words. Kaya can be translated as a physical body, or a collection of mental events. Like imagined Rupa, vedana etc.
What exactly is a base of samadhi, according to the Chinese sutta?
There is no base of mind or samadhi in the earliest Buddhism. A base of mind appeared later in the literature influenced by Abhidhamma. Plenty of scripture in the canon is influenced by later buddhist thinkers.
Could it possibly mean for instance,
"meditate on the collection of greed, hatred and confusion, how it gains ground"
These qualities are of an
  • impure and detestable nature,
if you think of the body as a body of thoughts.
I don't know Chinese so I'm ignorant regarding translation matters. But these three suttas in the OP are parallels. They all talk about analysing the body and mention body parts. So 'body' is just the physical body.
In my GG translate version there is no mention of the 'three meditations' btw.
Regarding 'Base of samadhi': GG translated it as 'bottom of samadhi' so that's my interpretation. But I'll just consider that phrase to mean a level of jhana, similar to what the parallels say.
Pulsar
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Pulsar »

rybka3 wrote
I don't know Chinese so I'm ignorant regarding translation matters.
Sure, do you think even the greatest scholars (experts in Chinese? Chinese itself is complicated, think of Shakesearan English) can translate words like rupa or kaya, without understanding the doctrine of Dependent Origination as presented by Buddha. Later traditions interpreted DO, otherwise.
This forum is on Early Buddhism. Which interpretation do you subscribe to?
Which one should we practice?
You continue:
But these three suttas in the OP are parallels. They all talk about analysing the body and mention body parts. So 'body' is just the physical body.
Sure, they are paralles.
Three paralles propagating the same myth, that Buddha taught "Meditation on body parts" can lead to end of suffering?
Can you please humor me and explain briefly how "body part meditation' can solve a problem that is basically rooted in the mind. The endless craving, or thirst for continued existence?
Isn't I-making the problem we should be targeting, (a defilement of the mind), not the repulsiveness of the body?
When we meditate on body parts, are we not ignoring the problem at hand?
  • "Mind is the forerunner of all (evil) things' Mind is chief; mind-made are they" DHP 1
The true practice should be about gradually abolishing the repulsiveness of the mind. Can meditation on body parts accomplish that? Bodies Arahant or not, die decay and become repulsive.
The Arahant's mind that is void of I-making, does not decay, rot, and become foul smelling. Not so the ordinary person's mind, that is full of foul smelling thoughts, it is as if it is already dead, even while living, unless it is truly mindful.
  • 'Heedfulness is the path to deathless' DHP 21.
Heedful of what? It is the I-making.
How do you avoid the I-making? Should not that be the primary goal of meditation?
Happy Sunday :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:16 pm Can you explain how contemplation of body parts can end suffering?
It helps to overcome the hindrances. Then, when Jhana is attained, you can contemplate the conditionality between body, mind and consciousness. I leave it open if that’s done whilst in or out of Jhana, as that’s a different discussion that’s been done to death.
"It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life."

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Pulsar
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:16 pm
Can you explain how contemplation of body parts can end suffering?
It helps to overcome the hindrances.
How exactly are hindrances overcome by relying on body part meditation? Can you specify which
hindrances are overcome? Does it help overcome doubt?
Samyutta nikaya writes
"Bhikkhus, there are these five obstructions, hindrances, corruptions of the mind, weakeners of wisdom. What five?

Sensual desire
ill will
sloth and torpor
restlessness and remorse
doubt"
If body part meditation allows elimination of Sensual desire, why did we need the Buddha? Were these not practiced in India, way before the Buddha's Awakening to DO, and 4 truths? Did those practitioners succeed in eliminating the 5 hindrances, by meditating on body parts?
Can ill will be avoided by meditating on body parts?
Metta Sutta would be a far better meditation to accomplish that. Don't you think so?
To avoid Sloth and torpor? can meditation of body parts help here? How?
Would not breath meditation be far more suitable for this purpose?
Best :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Body Part Meditation - Early Buddhist Practice

Post by Pulsar »

The reference to hindrances and their power over us, brings AN 3.128 to my mind.
It provides us with thought provoking metaphors for things that hinder path to Nibbana.
In tha sutta Buddha introduces powerful metaphors for sensual desire and ill will.
A synopsis of the sutta
Seeing a disgruntled monk, on his alms round,
Buddha exclaims
"Monk, don't be bitter" (desire is bitterness)
corrupted by carrion (Ill will is carrion)
flies (bad unskillful thoughts) will plague and infest you.
Anguish is their lot"
"The fool, void of wisdom, is honoured only by
flies"
Agama parallel to AN 3.128: SA 1081
Bhikkhu! Bhikkhu! You are a bitter child, extremely filthy,
and your roots are evil
.
Where there is emission of juice, there will be flies.
Flies is a reference to bad thoughts.
Can meditation on body parts get rid of bad thoughts arising out of evil roots. Evil roots being a reference to Sensual desire and ill will/hatred.
With love :candle:
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