Darwinism and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Bundokji
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:03 am It might be useful to examine the evidence before reaching conclusion. Have the folks here who reject evolution done that? If not, here are a few sites I quickly found:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/bio ... -evolution
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/ ... evolution/
https://sciencing.com/theory-of-evoluti ... 19059.html

Short of outright rejection, there is of course plenty of reasons to criticise, that makes sense. But I agree with David, that there is plenty of evidence to imply that evolution happens, i.e. it is a fact.
The scientific evidence that supports evolution is based on observable facts, and the theory has logical coherence to it that makes it easy to accept by reasonable people. The problem is that people try to reject theories based on counter evidence in order to remain loyal to facts, while whats been rejected can get easily lost in details.

Historically, the question about origins is a preoccupation of religion, especially creationism. This is why, the theory of evolution is often presented as a replacement of the older paradigm, by persuading people that empirical evidence is more reliable that logical inferences. The problem is: if we were to believe in evolution, and if a creator god is a product of how our minds/brains evolved, then rejecting one would eventually lead to rejecting the other by virtue of the blind mechanism (evolution) that drives both. What remains unchanged, however, is our faith in the whole business of origination, and how it would eventually lead to our salvation. Dependent origination provides a gloomy picture about such endeavor, by identifying the first link as "ignorance" and the last being old age, death and suffering.

More generally, rejecting god has been a driving force in human development. Maybe Darwin's initial intention had little to do with rejecting god, but he understood the ramifications of his theory, and it happened that his theory came at a time when the western understanding of the world and the place of humanity within it was undergoing a major change.

Another failure of evolution is that it did not bring us closer to nature. With the rise of evolution came an increasing appetite to control nature, and equating the will to truth to the will to power. What it got right is that we are still psychologically in our childhood, and in need of a father figure to watch over us.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Boris »

The only strong evidence which approaches certainty in dialectic about evolution is that there is tendency to take what is uncertain for being certain, in other words to take one's own faith as verifable truth.

Ven Nanamoli Thera from the essay Consciousness and Being:
How many more people in history have been killed for the sake of opinions about what is and what is not than have been killed for the sake of facts? View-points, interpretations, and opinions about the raw material of experience differ, less or more, from individual person to individual person. The more consistent and logically strengthened any moral, religious, or philosophical system becomes, the more possible it becomes for it to be contradicted by an opposing system. And then bare craving has to arbitrarily choose and bash the opponent on the head if it can. That is why Buddhism (especially Nāgārjuna, but also Theravada) favours a dialectic that pulls down all such positivistic-negativistic systems (the positive is always haunted by the negative, and so there is really no true via negativa or via positiva in any absolute sense). It pulls them down using their own premises.
**
This note deals with attachment to views, but let's make it clear that there are other kind of attachments, and one who is very tolerant and can objectively discuss with so called "intellectual honesty" any kind of view, in the most cases is not so much intellectually or even spiritually developed, just he doesn't bother with such things, being for example involved in search for sensual gratification. However the more intelligent one is the more one feels the need for some metaphysics, which provides escape from the chaos of "the raw material of experience".

And clash of such contradictory systems in evolutionist terms is the true struggle for one's own survival, so self-preservation instinct or bhavatanha if you prefer is involved. In this sense it is an absurd to ask believer for intellectual honesty - which is reflexive attitude - while craving is firmly established on the level of emotions, on pre-reflexive level. Note contains extract from the book which criticizes Kevin MacDonald for taking for granted that idea of Intelligent Design is unscientific and not worthy of attention. But the very critic uses such terms as Logos or Kantian moral imperative, as if these were objectively perceived entities. Again, the problem is not that one believes in the moral law, but in deception that it is a rational and obvious idea.

In short people didn't like to admit their own ignorance. But in Dhamma function of faith as a tool in conditions where ignorance predominates is clearly recognised.  Only it cannot be taken for knowledge:

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth. MN 95

Psychology recognizes so called "cognitive dissonance", when human mind meets information that contradicts one's own "worldview". The poit is that human mind doesn't work like a computer, which formulates certain idea based on provided data, and when a new data is given, computer quickly accommodates it and reformulates the idea. In the case of human mind we have additional factor, namely feeling, and on the first place data which contradicts one's own ideas is recognised as "unpleasant", and how unpleasant it is mostly depends on importance of the "subject" which is undermined and which mind sees as true and valuable.

For example, on suttacentral during discussion of some rather ambiguous Dalaj Lama behaviour one user naively recognised as a virtue that things were discussed there more or less objectively and without any bias. Unfortunately he missed one important thing, Dalaj Lama may enjoy some respect between Theravada students, but in the most cases he isn't important part of Theravada worldview, so most users there didn't feel personally threatened. If one would try to find faults, let's say with Ajahn Brahmavamso, perhaps things would not go so easily and objectively.

Generally informations which contradict given set of beliefs, (which quite often is taken as a "knowledge"), have a long way untill mind decide to think about them, and in the most cases this kind of informations never arrive to such point.

On the first place they are deliberately avoided, if one has to face them, they are dismissed based on ... well mamy things apart honest intelectual discussion, which is quite understandable since the honest intelectual discussion consist in admitting that one can be wrong. And the more fundamental is a "brick" in one's worldview, the less one is willing to accept one's own ignorance.
And this mechanism works quite well, so if one have a "bad luck" to meet such informatios, and is not able to dismiss them, still mind has another option, namely just forget about them.

So the fate of such ideas is somehow similar to what is said about modern readership:

Nobody reads anything.
Even if one read, one does not understand.
Even if one understand, one quickly forgets.

Or there is nice aphorism by Upton Sinclair: ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding.’ This rather crude observation is valid also on much subtle levels. Views specially in metaphysical subjects give meaning to existence, it is very painful to live in incomprehensible universe, so such views become a part of personality (sakkaya) and  ideas which undermine them are seen as threatening the very core of one's existence.

So without such psychological knowledge, one can easily attribute such attitude as "intellectual dishonesty" and in certain sense it is a good term, but it is misleading if one who uses it believes that humans are rational and purely intellectual beings. Here example of such misuse: it comes from  the book Kevin MacDonald’s Metaphysical Failure A Philosophical, Historical, and Moral Critique of Evolutionary Psychology,... by Jonas E. Alexis:
I did mention at the beginning of this work that there are some levels of intellectual dishonesty in MacDonald’s writing. First of all, let me define intellectual dishonesty by comparing it with intellectual honesty.

Intellectual honesty does not deliberately misrepresent or misconstrue or mischaracterize a position, particularly when there is a vast amount of scholarly literature available on that position; intellectual honesty doesn’t deliberately or intentionally twist anything or leave out important information; intellectual honesty states an opponent’s position as the opponent presents it and responds in a logical manner. Logical fallacies or non sequiturs such as straw men are not part of intellectual honesty. One dictionary defines intellectual dishonesty as “An argument which is misused to advance an agenda or to reinforce one’s deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence contrary.” Has MacDonald been guilty of any of these things?

Let me state right at the outset that I am not an intelligent design proponent. I don’t appreciate Ben Stein’s worldview any more than MacDonald does, but obviously MacDonald hasn’t been paying the slightest attention to what the intelligent design movement has been saying. In fact, I will state categorically that MacDonald is intellectually dishonest when it comes to really understanding what the movement is about. How?

MacDonald laments that the academic world ostracizes him. He declares at the beginning of The Culture of Critique that the vast majority of scholars denounces his work, presumably because the issues he discusses in his work are quite sensitive. MacDonald writes in Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition that he was attacked at California State University where he taught for years. He writes,

As with Anne Morrow Lindbergh’s concern about going shopping in New York, the most dif f i cult thing is dealing with loss of reputation in my face-to-face world at the university.
The biggest problem is that being an academic nonconformist on race and ethnicity has huge moral overtones. If one dissents from the reigning theory of macroeconomics or the main infuences on nineteenth-century French Romanticism, one may be viewed as a bit eccentric or perhaps none too smart.

Given that academics tend to be Conscientious types, it’s not surprising that academics are generally loath to do or say things that might endanger their reputation. This is at least ironic, because it conflicts with the image of academics as fearless seekers of truth. Unlike politicians, who must continue to curry favor with the public in order to be re-elected, and unlike media figures who have no job protection, academics with tenure have no excuse for not being willing to endure labels such as ‘anti-Semite’ or ‘racist’ in order to pursue their perception of the truth. Part of the job—and a large part of the rationale for tenure in the first place—is that they are supposed to be willing to take unpopular positions; to forge ahead using all that brain power and expertise to chart new territories that challenge the popular wisdom. But that image of academia is simply not based in reality.1

So far, so good. During an interview with Jim Fetzer, MacDonald says that

The Culture of Critique, which I think is an important book, “got almost no reviews” in the academic world. He even admitted that he was being persecuted at California State University, Long Beach. In response to Nathan Cofnas’ critique of The Culture of Critique, MacDonald posits quite rightly that Academics want their work to be taken seriously, and honest academics value the rough and tumble of academic debate. But what I got was silence, or comments like that of Steven Pinker, who is listed in the Acknowledgements section of Cofnas’s review, saying that it was below the threshold of academic interest—and that he hadn’t read it.2

But the interesting thing is that MacDonald deliberately misrepresents the intelligent design movement and demolishes his own straw man with great relish. He writes unflinchingly: “Of course, intelligent design is not a reasonable alternative at all, but a highly motivated effort to legitimize a religious world view in the sciences.”3

What was the evidence and were the scholarly sources that MacDonald used to support this bold claim? Did he even read what ID proponents were saying and refuting them with intellectual muster? MacDonald presented not a single piece of evidence. Not one. Th is is intellectual laziness and pure intellectual dishonesty, largely because the intelligent design movement has produced a wealth of studies fleshing out what the arguments actually are and where the issues really lie.4 Their arguments don’t even remotely hinge on religious premises. In fact, many in the movement are not even religious!

Moreover, the definition of intelligent design that MacDonald is working with is pure fiction. For example, in The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities, published by Cambridge University, mathematician William Dembski meticulously argues that undirected natural causes can lose their explanatory power if “specified events of small probability” are present. “To attribute an event to design is to say that regularity and chance have been ruled out,”5 writes Dembski. Using probability theories, Dembski marshals a coherent argument which has been used for thousands of years, going all the way back to Aristotle and beyond.

Intelligent design, says Dembski, “studies signs of intelligence.” He gives a number of examples, but Mount Rushmore will suffice: “Think of Mount Rushmore—what about this rock formation convinces us it was due to a designing intelligence and not merely to wind and erosion?

Designed objects like Mount Rushmore exhibit characteristic features or patterns that point us to an intelligence.”6 Dembski’s premise cannot be easily dismissed by cheap shots such as that the book “is motivated and informed by an anti-evolutionary impulse, and its flaws appear to follow from the need to achieve an anti-evolutionary aim.”7 Marine biologist Wesley R. Elsberry, the author of those words, admits that Dembski’s book is a “scholarly volume, as one expects from a distinguished academic press. Dembski employs clear writing, illustrative examples, and cogent argumentation.”8 But Elsberry has no way of refuting the arguments that are presented in the book, so his only recourse is to declare that Dembski is motivated by “an anti-evolutionary impulse.” Elsberry added: “The Design Inference is a work with great significance for the group of anti-evolutionists who have embraced ‘intelligent design’ as their organizing principle.”9

Long before MacDonald posited his baseless claim about ID, evolutionary biologist Massimo Pigliucci declared that Demski’s book is “a mix of trivial probability theory and nonsensical inferences.” He moved on to say that “this book is part of a large, well-planned movement whose objective, I contend, is nothing less than the destruction of modern science and its substitution with a religious system of belief.”10 The people in the movement aren’t rejecting or attacking science; they are scrutinizing a philosophical idea known as naturalism, which has very little to do with science.11 They are also questioning whether the Darwinian mechanism has enough explanatory power. And they are not the only ones to be skeptical here. (...)

What we are seeing again is that Kevin MacDonald’s critique of the intelligent design movement just doesn’t add up. It is also very disappointing because MacDonald doesn’t like it when Jewish intellectuals like Nathan Cofnas misrepresent or mischaracterize or misconstrue his position.35 He would have done a better job to write a scholarly review of the movement and cite the sources contextually, just as he has done in works like The Culture of Critique. But, like his critics, MacDonald took the easy route: first build a straw man and then knock it down with cheap shots.
That again is typical among those who cannot formulate a serious rebuke of what the people in the intelligent design movement are saying.

For example, within hours of the release of Stephen Meyer’s Darwin’s Doubt, which is almost five hundred pages, comments appeared in the blogosphere stating things like the book is “mendacious intellectual pornography.”36 These people hadn’t even read the book! And those who actually gave the impression that they had read the book—like journalist Gareth Cook of the New Yorker37—they never addressed the issues that were raised at all.

Moreover, isn’t it true that many serious academics are afraid to even criticize Neo-Darwinism? Haven’t numerous scientists and academics been fired from their academic positions for even suggesting that ID perhaps— just perhaps—may be able to explain some things in ways that the Neo-Darwinian mechanism cannot? Was Dean Kenyon basing his critique of the Darwinian paradigm on a “highly motivated effort to legitimize a religious world view” when he began to doubt the theory of evolution?

Didn’t he previously co-write books such as Biochemical Predestination, arguing that life could have happened through natural selection and without any intelligent cause? Was astronomer and mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle an intelligent design theorist when he produced numerous mathematical arguments against Neo-Darwinism?

Take for example Günter Bechly, a distinguished paleontologist who has authored or co-authored nearly 150 scientiffic publications. His co-edited book on fossils, The Crato Fossil Beds of Brazil, was published by Cambridge University Press in 2007.38 Bechly has discovered and named more than 160 new species, and has 10 biological groups named in his honor. He has served on the editorial boards of two scientific journals, and has organized five large public exhibitions on Earth history and evolution....

At the bicentennial of Darwin’s birth, Bechly directed the Darwin Day exhibit at the prestigious State Museum of Natural History in Stuttgart, Germany.39 Bechly used to scoff at the intelligent design movement—until he began to read the books that the movement has put out. He declared:

[W]hat I recognized to my surprise is that the arguments I found in those books were totally different from what I heard either from colleagues, or when you watch YouTube videos where the discussion is around intelligent design versus neo-Darwinian evolution. And I had the impression that on one side those people are mistreated, their position is misrepresented, and on the other hand that these arguments are not really receiving an appropriate response and they have merit.40

Bechly was instantly removed from State Museum of Natural History in Stuttgart, where he was one of the curators for seventeen years. Wikipedia completely deleted his English page. Omer Benjakob of Haaretz, who uses condescending words to describe the intelligent design movement, had this to say: “If Bechly’s article [on Wikipedia] was originally introduced due to his scientific work, it was deleted due to his having become a poster child for the creationist movement.”41
from the book Kevin MacDonald’s Metaphysical Failure A Philosophical, Historical, and Moral Critique of Evolutionary Psychology,... by Jonas E. Alexis
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is just rambling nonsense.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Mahabrahma »

Stuff was created

Stuff evolved for billions and of years too

Some stuff was created again

And here we are, I Love Jesus, Buddha, and Science too.

(And really it's infinitely more complex than that).

:guns:
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Dan74
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Dan74 »

Radix
Radix wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:43 am
Dan74 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:03 am It might be useful to examine the evidence before reaching conclusion. Have the folks here who reject evolution done that? If not, here are a few sites I quickly found:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/bio ... -evolution
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/ ... evolution/
https://sciencing.com/theory-of-evoluti ... 19059.html

Short of outright rejection, there is of course plenty of reasons to criticise, that makes sense. But I agree with David, that there is plenty of evidence to imply that evolution happens, i.e. it is a fact.
Again, a characteristically dismissive approach. Just how much do you think that people hate themselves that they will feel inspired to read up on evolution after reading a post like yours?
People (including myself) form views without taking the time to learn about the field. There are just too many issues out there to be informed about and many of us don't care much about being informed. The sceptical participants certainly advanced many interesting ideas and issues from philosophy, history and the Dhamma, but there was not much biology in the discussion.

I often struggle to understand how you come to your conclusions on the basis of a post like mine above.
Radix wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:43 am Look at yourself: Even if I say, "2 + 2 = 4", your first impulse is to disagree with me; what to speak of anything else. You don't respect me and you don't take anything from me. And you think other people are not like you? You think they will listen to someone they don't respect and who doesn't show them respect?
I can only shake my head here. Our interaction is like nothing I've experienced IRL, I fail to connect what I intended and wrote to what you reply, so I don't know what to do with it. A few points. First, I've agreed with you in the past and have no impulse to disagree. I respect you and find you a highly intelligent participant, which I've said to you in PM as well as to others. I do try to read and reflect on what you say. Sometimes though, like this time, your replies read as non sequiturs to me, so I don't engage, because I just don't get where you came from with all this. It feels like there is baggage and how does one reply to baggage without causing more upset?

BTW, the my post you replied to was not really directed at you, at least I was thinking of other participants of this discussion when I wrote it.
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dan74
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Dan74 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:00 am
Dan74 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:03 am It might be useful to examine the evidence before reaching conclusion. Have the folks here who reject evolution done that? If not, here are a few sites I quickly found:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/bio ... -evolution
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/ ... evolution/
https://sciencing.com/theory-of-evoluti ... 19059.html

Short of outright rejection, there is of course plenty of reasons to criticise, that makes sense. But I agree with David, that there is plenty of evidence to imply that evolution happens, i.e. it is a fact.
The scientific evidence that supports evolution is based on observable facts, and the theory has logical coherence to it that makes it easy to accept by reasonable people. The problem is that people try to reject theories based on counter evidence in order to remain loyal to facts, while whats been rejected can get easily lost in details.
Sure and like I said there are issues, apparent gaps, etc. What did you mean exactly about trying to reject based on counter-evidence? Can we get more specific?
Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:00 am Historically, the question about origins is a preoccupation of religion, especially creationism. This is why, the theory of evolution is often presented as a replacement of the older paradigm, by persuading people that empirical evidence is more reliable that logical inferences. The problem is: if we were to believe in evolution, and if a creator god is a product of how our minds/brains evolved, then rejecting one would eventually lead to rejecting the other by virtue of the blind mechanism (evolution) that drives both.
So rejecting th creator-god means rejecting evolution that gave rise to this idea? I don't see how that follows. We have rejected many customs that were held for many millennia, this is a product of choice and discernment, not that we reject that evolution happens. I am probably misunderstanding your point..
Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:00 am What remains unchanged, however, is our faith in the whole business of origination, and how it would eventually lead to our salvation. Dependent origination provides a gloomy picture about such endeavor, by identifying the first link as "ignorance" and the last being old age, death and suffering.
Do you mean the Judeo-Muslim-Christian view? Not sure of the relevance.
Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:00 am More generally, rejecting god has been a driving force in human development. Maybe Darwin's initial intention had little to do with rejecting god, but he understood the ramifications of his theory, and it happened that his theory came at a time when the western understanding of the world and the place of humanity within it was undergoing a major change.

Another failure of evolution is that it did not bring us closer to nature. With the rise of evolution came an increasing appetite to control nature, and equating the will to truth to the will to power. What it got right is that we are still psychologically in our childhood, and in need of a father figure to watch over us.
Yes, this may all be true and is surely important for understanding the place of evolution in our culture but not as to its merits as a scientific theory.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:23 am Sure and like I said there are issues, apparent gaps, etc. What did you mean exactly about trying to reject based on counter-evidence? Can we get more specific?
It is the same apparent gaps that the theory tries to resolve, whether evolution or creationism. The gaps in my view are an interplay between degrees, kinds and time. One can always imagine endless intermediaries between a certain species and its closest cousins, but based on ordinary perception, species represent distinct kinds with nothing in between. The solution to this problem could be digging for fossils to find the missing gaps, and dismissing the ordinary perception based on extending the period of time that created the gaps to a length that exceeds the relatively short human life, or sometimes introducing variables or pressures that accelerates the evolutionary process.

The problem of gaps does not belong only to creationism or evolution, but is also an old philosophical problem, such as the heap paradox, or the bald man paradox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubulides
So rejecting th creator-god means rejecting evolution that gave rise to this idea? I don't see how that follows. We have rejected many customs that were held for many millennia, this is a product of choice and discernment, not that we reject that evolution happens. I am probably misunderstanding your point..
Intelligent design solves the liar paradox (check the link above), but to claim that we are the product of a blind and futile natural force (evolution) would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot, leaving no place for virtue or truth or objective morality. This is a well known objection by Christians such as in Craig vs Harris


Do you mean the Judeo-Muslim-Christian view? Not sure of the relevance.
If we as Buddhists believe that Abrahamic traditions solve the problem of suffering, we would not have followed the teachings of the lord Buddha. That does not mean that everything these religions preach is a total nonsense, same with evolution. I am a fan of picking and choosing: if framing questions in terms of origination can reduce human suffering, then there is no harm in taking what is beneficial. For example, if Abrahamic traditions provide their followers for reasons not to kill or steal, then that would be a good application that does not contradict the teachings of the Buddha. If evolution can lead to beneficial discoveries in terms of genetics or diseases, then there is no harm in using it.

However, the question about origination is of little utility in relation to higher attainments. Whether we are the product of an intelligent design or a blind natural process does not make a big difference.
Yes, this may all be true and is surely important for understanding the place of evolution in our culture but not as to its merits as a scientific theory.
According to the Buddha's teachings, the focus is on suffering and eliminating it. The will to truth becomes indistinguishable from the will to power when this criteria is overlooked.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by zerotime »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:59 am However, the question about origination is of little utility in relation to higher attainments. Whether we are the product of an intelligent design or a blind natural process does not make a big difference.
[..]
According to the Buddha's teachings, the focus is on suffering and eliminating it. The will to truth becomes indistinguishable from the will to power when this criteria is overlooked.
well, the issue of an higher -self by means a god is an important issue because this is also linked with dukkha.

Creationism is discarded inside the Buddha teaching. In the Suttas there is the presence of a Great Brahma, who believes himself is the origin and creator of the Reality, although he is under a delusion about -self in the grasping of Reality. A more refined and subtle -self than in the human case.

It seems a main argument for Creationism is the fascination for an underlying order in the Nature. So in example, we can find such order in the Geometry of the perfect natural productions that we can check with bees, plants, crystals... and surely whatever thing. That order was perceived from ancient times, in example by Pythagorics and probably more people.

There is a good reason when Creationism ask to Materialism from where arose the script for that natural order, which obviously is previous in our knowledge to the deployment of matter. Like happens with the rails in where a train should go. And logically, the materialists lacks of a valid answer because they believe the matter is the first origin of all. There is no exit in their position.

In ultimate terms, the delusion of Materialism is a worse ignorance than Creationism. Because at least the Creationism recognize the presence of an involved consciousness being a precursor of the experience of Reality. Despite they cannot explain the relation with the manifested Reality, and then they use a creator God and his will to create this and that.

At least I understand the issue in Buddhist terms in different and rooted in the dependent origination. That perceived natural order sounds logical like the manifestation of the consciousness itself, in the actions of grasping and knowledge. Because these actions are always carried according space and time: "here and there" "before and now".
This is how the knowledge works. This is inherent to the same nature of knowledge, and in that way there is possibility to know a underlying natural order which become manifest by means Geometry or Mathematics, which are operations with space and time. The same act of recognition of an order is the knowledge of how the consciousness is working.

In simple terms, when we look a Romanesco broccoli we think this is a wonderful production and obviously it was deployed with an underlying script. This is right and also there is a consciousness behind. However, there is not any God but this is just the same nature of consciousness(knowledge) arising in dependence of nama-rupa at that very moment. There are experiences of Reality which become quite explicit in revealing that order because we are born like humans instead animals or lower beings. We are able to know that. Here there is also the difference with the stupidity: an stupid mind will not realize the beauty of that manifestation which in fact is a reflection of the same nature of consciousness, being nama-rupa like a mirage available to recognize that.

Creationism can be seen like a refreshing presence in these present times with a fanatical Materialism. As also Materialism was a refreshing presence in past times with a fanatical Theism.
Today there are interesting things from creationists authors analyzing the Darwinism and its incoherences. This task is not enough carried by the official Science because many scientists can have fear of isolation and rejection. The inner processes of acceptance inside the Scientific community are like those of the old Church with its Inquisitorial devices. And some of their devotes can be so fanatical and obstacles for the truth like happened with some theist people in past times.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Radix »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:05 am
Radix wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:43 amAgain, a characteristically dismissive approach. Just how much do you think that people hate themselves that they will feel inspired to read up on evolution after reading a post like yours?
People (including myself) form views without taking the time to learn about the field.
Exactly. Which is why people not rarely decide about some topic on the grounds of the personal qualities of the person proposing said topic. If the speaker doesn't seem to care about them -- or makes it clearer that he doesn't care -- they probably won't believe what he says, no matter what the topic is. The emotional tone and attitude of the speaker are all the more relevant to the listener the more complex and harder to understand the topic (this is especially visible in children and people who don't quite understand the language in which the presentation is held -- children and such people have not much else to go by but the emotion of the speaker).

In other words, I contend that some, if not many, people who reject the Theory of Evolution do so on the grounds that the proponents of evolution don't care about them.
I often struggle to understand how you come to your conclusions on the basis of a post like mine above.
/.../
I can only shake my head here. Our interaction is like nothing I've experienced IRL, I fail to connect what I intended and wrote to what you reply, so I don't know what to do with it.
Like I often say, this is a discussion forum. Not the watercooler at work, not the family dinner table, not a campfire with friends. As such, the manner of how things are talked about is and should be different than in those other socio-economic settings.

(Somehow, this just doesn't get through to you ...)
A few points. First, I've agreed with you in the past and have no impulse to disagree. I respect you and find you a highly intelligent participant, which I've said to you in PM as well as to others. I do try to read and reflect on what you say. Sometimes though, like this time, your replies read as non sequiturs to me, so I don't engage, because I just don't get where you came from with all this. It feels like there is baggage and how does one reply to baggage without causing more upset?
I'm not upset. I'm trying to explain to the evolutionistas where they're going wrong when trying to educate/convince others about evolution.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Radix
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 10:59 amto claim that we are the product of a blind and futile natural force (evolution) would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot, leaving no place for virtue or truth or objective morality.
And a version of this wrong view:
"When this was said, Pakudha Kaccayana said to me, 'Great king, there are these seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain. Which seven? The earth-substance, the liquid-substance, the fire-substance, the wind-substance, pleasure, pain, and the soul as the seventh. These are the seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, and are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain.

"'And among them there is no killer nor one who causes killing, no hearer nor one who causes hearing, no cognizer nor one who causes cognition. When one cuts off [another person's] head, there is no one taking anyone's life. It is simply between the seven substances that the sword passes.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
(The modern equivalent to the seven substances would be chemical elements.)
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Dan74 »

I agree with all of what you wrote in principle. Tone is important. We should take care of how we communicate online, perhaps even more so because online communication is more likely to be misconstrued, given the absence of all those other cues. You are right that I can do better and I will try to.

That said, we are also responsible for how we interpret, how we imbue the message with the tone, given scant clues as to what tone was actually implied and the cultural differences.

An interesting thought experiment would be to hide all the user info and just read the posts. How would it read without the assumed personality of the author? Or even with another one?

Most of the time I don't trust myself to be sure of the author's intention online. I've been wrong enough times.
Radix wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:53 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:05 am
Radix wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:43 amAgain, a characteristically dismissive approach. Just how much do you think that people hate themselves that they will feel inspired to read up on evolution after reading a post like yours?
People (including myself) form views without taking the time to learn about the field.
Exactly. Which is why people not rarely decide about some topic on the grounds of the personal qualities of the person proposing said topic. If the speaker doesn't seem to care about them -- or makes it clearer that he doesn't care -- they probably won't believe what he says, no matter what the topic is. The emotional tone and attitude of the speaker are all the more relevant to the listener the more complex and harder to understand the topic (this is especially visible in children and people who don't quite understand the language in which the presentation is held -- children and such people have not much else to go by but the emotion of the speaker).

In other words, I contend that some, if not many, people who reject the Theory of Evolution do so on the grounds that the proponents of evolution don't care about them.
I often struggle to understand how you come to your conclusions on the basis of a post like mine above.
/.../
I can only shake my head here. Our interaction is like nothing I've experienced IRL, I fail to connect what I intended and wrote to what you reply, so I don't know what to do with it.
Like I often say, this is a discussion forum. Not the watercooler at work, not the family dinner table, not a campfire with friends. As such, the manner of how things are talked about is and should be different than in those other socio-economic settings.

(Somehow, this just doesn't get through to you ...)
A few points. First, I've agreed with you in the past and have no impulse to disagree. I respect you and find you a highly intelligent participant, which I've said to you in PM as well as to others. I do try to read and reflect on what you say. Sometimes though, like this time, your replies read as non sequiturs to me, so I don't engage, because I just don't get where you came from with all this. It feels like there is baggage and how does one reply to baggage without causing more upset?
I'm not upset. I'm trying to explain to the evolutionistas where they're going wrong when trying to educate/convince others about evolution.
_/|\_
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Radix »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:16 pm I agree with all of what you wrote in principle. Tone is important. We should take care of how we communicate online, perhaps even more so because online communication is more likely to be misconstrued, given the absence of all those other cues. You are right that I can do better and I will try to.

That said, we are also responsible for how we interpret, how we imbue the message with the tone, given scant clues as to what tone was actually implied and the cultural differences.
/.../
Most of the time I don't trust myself to be sure of the author's intention online. I've been wrong enough times.
It's not rocket science. One just needs to actually read what is written.

E.g.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:39 pmRadix, you've got us all figured out, haven't you? Not a smidgeon of self-doubt, of kindness in your posts. Do you know what kindness means? Maybe you do, but it sure doesn't come across anything you write here. You judge, condemn and execute. Case closed. Is there ever a question?
That's not the sort of thing one says to those one respects. So I surmise that you don't respect me.

An interesting thought experiment would be to hide all the user info and just read the posts. How would it read without the assumed personality of the author? Or even with another one?
Then join a philosophy forum, such as this one here for some practice. Or take a course in informal logic at a university; don't just read a book about it, but go somewhere where someone will actually talk to you and you talk to them in that manner.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Dan74 »

Radix wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:34 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:16 pm I agree with all of what you wrote in principle. Tone is important. We should take care of how we communicate online, perhaps even more so because online communication is more likely to be misconstrued, given the absence of all those other cues. You are right that I can do better and I will try to.

That said, we are also responsible for how we interpret, how we imbue the message with the tone, given scant clues as to what tone was actually implied and the cultural differences.
/.../
Most of the time I don't trust myself to be sure of the author's intention online. I've been wrong enough times.
It's not rocket science. One just needs to actually read what is written.
I actually think it is harder than rocket science. There are more missing variables.
Radix wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:34 pm E.g.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:39 pmRadix, you've got us all figured out, haven't you? Not a smidgeon of self-doubt, of kindness in your posts. Do you know what kindness means? Maybe you do, but it sure doesn't come across anything you write here. You judge, condemn and execute. Case closed. Is there ever a question?
That's not the sort of thing one says to those one respects. So I surmise that you don't respect me.
Like everything else, context is paramount. What posts of yours do you think may have elicited this response?

But regardless, I do respect you. Otherwise why would I even bother?

Radix wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:34 pm
An interesting thought experiment would be to hide all the user info and just read the posts. How would it read without the assumed personality of the author? Or even with another one?
Then join a philosophy forum, such as this one here for some practice. Or take a course in informal logic at a university; don't just read a book about it, but go somewhere where someone will actually talk to you and you talk to them in that manner.
Hmmm... I could and I might, but don't you think this is relevant to what you said, to how we interact here?
_/|\_
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Radix »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:26 pm I actually think it is harder than rocket science. There are more missing variables.
Not for a person of goodwill.
Like everything else, context is paramount. What posts of yours do you think may have elicited this response?
Irrelevant in this case. There are things one does simply not say to those one respects.
But regardless, I do respect you. Otherwise why would I even bother?
Because you're a passive-aggressive "nice guy".
Hmmm... I could and I might, but don't you think this is relevant to what you said, to how we interact here?
My suggestion was for you to get used to a particular manner of conversation, a philosophical one.

But of course, here the mode of discourse is quasi-religious. So that's another matter entirely.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Darwinism and the Dhamma

Post by Dan74 »

Radix wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:13 am
Dan74 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:26 pm I actually think it is harder than rocket science. There are more missing variables.
Not for a person of goodwill.
Like everything else, context is paramount. What posts of yours do you think may have elicited this response?
Irrelevant in this case. There are things one does simply not say to those one respects.
But regardless, I do respect you. Otherwise why would I even bother?
Because you're a passive-aggressive "nice guy".
Hmmm... I could and I might, but don't you think this is relevant to what you said, to how we interact here?
My suggestion was for you to get used to a particular manner of conversation, a philosophical one.

But of course, here the mode of discourse is quasi-religious. So that's another matter entirely.
A presumption of ill-will makes an actual exchange impossible. I wonder if you reflect on your part in this sometimes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway.
_/|\_
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