What would the West have looked like if Buddha Dhamma had arrived 2000 years ago?

[Cause_and_Effect]

As far as I know Europeans were Pagans and polytheists before. Then they were persecuted by Christians and killed or force converted. Medieval Christianity was like hardline Islam today, a scourge where people were killed for holding different beliefs.

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

[Dan74]

In fairness, Abrahamic religions had very different strands early on (the Gnostics in Christianity and the Sufis in Islam, for example). It's just that the most organised and dogmatic factions survived and dominated.

The point I am trying to make is that it is not only about the content of the religion, but also the social pressures and the dynamics within the group that determine which way it's going to go.

[Sam Vara]

As far as I know Europeans were Pagans and polytheists before. Then they were persecuted by Christians and killed or force converted. Medieval Christianity was like hardline Islam today, a scourge where people were killed for holding different beliefs.

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

The-Seated-Buddha.jpg

There are many accounts of pre-Christian people in Europe enthusiastically converting to Christianity without persecution, killing, or force.

There are many modern thinkers who believe that Christianity had a hugely positive influence on Western thought and culture, standing as the basis for human rights, universal justice, and organised charity, as well as artistic excellence and economic development. If you are not familiar with this kind of thinking, Tom Holland's book Dominion: the Making of the Western Mind is a good popular introduction.

[Radix]

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

Possibly like other traditionally Buddhist countries look like nowadays; at least the warmer parts of Europe. But since considerable parts of Europe have colder seasons, including a winter with temperatures far below suitable for spending much time outdoors, this requires a different socio-economic support system for the monastics (much more expensive).

[Kusala]

As far as I know Europeans were Pagans and polytheists before. Then they were persecuted by Christians and killed or force converted. Medieval Christianity was like hardline Islam today, a scourge where people were killed for holding different beliefs.

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

The-Seated-Buddha.jpg

Interesting topic. I think, had the Roman empire under Constantine converted to Buddhism, pre-Christian religions such as Druidism and other Shamanic(Samana) practices would have flourished alongside Buddhism.

[befriend]

I wish, maybe we'd all be a hybrid of Native American spirituality and buddha Dhamma. Sounds like a good mix. I'd sign up for that.

[Kusala]

I wish, maybe we'd all be a hybrid of Native American spirituality and buddha Dhamma. Sounds like a good mix. I'd sign up for that.

No mixing of faiths, but mutual respect...

Check this article out "...faith in the snow without Abraham".

I think it encapsulates the spirit of Buddhism...

https://moderntokyotimes.com/japanese-a ... t-abraham/

[Mahabrahma]

If you start thinking that taking out a certain religion and replacing it with another may make things better, you may not understand why the Wheel is Spun. ☸. Preservation of Tradition is very important, however. So is Expounding the Dhamma.

[Pondera]

According to Legend, the Buddha chose India as his final birthplace for several important reasons. It wasn’t too populated was one of those reasons.

At the time in Europe, Buddhism was probably known about. Greek Philosophers display the same life style and intentions as the Buddha (although the Buddha took it farther). It’s unlikely Buddhism wasn’t known to the west at the time.

It simply didn’t catch on. In the same way Buddhism died out in India due (in large part) to the established Caste system, the Roman Conquer of Europe had no place for a peaceful religion.

If you look at it, Jesus is a direct product of his times. Israel was occupied by the Romans. The people needed a messiah to save them from the conquerors. Jesus came spreading a spiritual message. That message inspired the people to gather around the fight against Roman occupation. When it finally appeared to be a threat to the empire, Constantine adopted the religion universally. The rest is history.

My opinion. The west wasn’t ready for the message of the Buddha. Nor was India. We aren’t today. It’s rare to find someone who can absolutely forsake the search for wealth and gain instead of absolute peace.

[surfver]

As far as I know Europeans were Pagans and polytheists before. Then they were persecuted by Christians and killed or force converted. Medieval Christianity was like hardline Islam today, a scourge where people were killed for holding different beliefs.

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

The-Seated-Buddha.jpg

There are many accounts of pre-Christian people in Europe enthusiastically converting to Christianity without persecution, killing, or force.

There are many modern thinkers who believe that Christianity had a hugely positive influence on Western thought and culture, standing as the basis for human rights, universal justice, and organised charity, as well as artistic excellence and economic development. If you are not familiar with this kind of thinking, Tom Holland's book Dominion: the Making of the Western Mind is a good popular introduction.

Yes this is quite a bit more complex and Christianity and Islam are fairly different in many ways

[confusedlayman]

it will be like Japan? or china?

[SecretSage]

As far as I know Europeans were Pagans and polytheists before. Then they were persecuted by Christians and killed or force converted. Medieval Christianity was like hardline Islam today, a scourge where people were killed for holding different beliefs.

Based on the historical evidence I think that Buddhism already had a big influence on the West since Buddhist missionaries were sent all around the world and possibly influenced pre-Christian Norse and Celtic religions and Christianity.

A main hint of this is the Western opposition towards cannibalism.
The societies uninfluenced by Buddhism seemed to not oppose cannibalism and historians aren't sure where the opposition comes from indicating that Buddhist monks traveled into those regions and rejected human meat since it's a Thullaccaya offense in early Buddhism.

The question is, would the Western world be radically different in a better way if Abrahamic religions had never gained a foothold?
What would the Western society have looked like if Buddha Dharma has come to Europe 2000 years ago?

It depends on many factors like the individuals themselves.

If people with very bad past kamma are exposed to Buddhism they still might misinterpret the teachings and have no attainments even if they try really hard.

When the world's kamma improves beings will automatically have morals and virtues closer to Buddhism.

[Bundokji]

I think nothing of worth would have changed if you take into consideration what the story of the tree of knowledge is trying to teach us, and how it applies to our situation collectively and individually.

In Islam, the pre-Islamic history is portrayed as an age of blissful ignorance, where people gathered as tribes, engaged in war and trade and all kinds of sensuality, until the appearance of the transcendental message, that showed them the path to salvation. Their salvation is contingent on following the message and adhering to the rules.

In Christianity and western civilization, a higher degree of maturity is reached by the age of enlightenment: we should follow evidence instead of transcendental dogmas, and never again to return to this primitive state of affairs. The problem becomes the issue of underlying tendencies, manifesting as spreading democracy to those who remain in their childhood - according to that paradigm.

The story of Prince Gautama follows the same trajectory: being protected by a father figure in the palace, before he becomes curious to see what lies beyond the walls. Seeing the four messenger is the beginning of entering adulthood, and through his years of ascetic training, he became an elder. He associated the state of blissful ignorance with the underlying tendencies a child is born with:

“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers of other religions fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘teachings’, so how could doubt about the teachings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘precepts’, so how could misapprehension of precepts and observances possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to misapprehension of precepts and observances still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sensual pleasures’, so how could desire for sensual pleasures possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual desire still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sentient beings’, so how could ill will for sentient beings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will still lies within them. Wouldn’t the wanderers of other religions fault you using the simile of the infant?”

[surfver]

Manicheism did reach the west and was in conflict with the church. It originated in Iran. It is not buddhist but was influenced by buddhism to some extent I guess as it appears it mentions buddha. To me that doesn't mean the same thing at all however as being buddhism and perhaps even western buddhism is unique as well and not the same


wikipedia> Mani's teaching was intended to "combine", succeed, and surpass the teachings of Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Marcionism, Hellenistic and Rabbinic Judaism, Gnostic movements, Ancient Greek religion, Babylonian and other Mesopotamian religions,and mystery cults. It reveres Mani as the final prophet after Zoroaster, the Gautama Buddha and Jesus Christ.

Saint Augustine (north Africa) was Manichiesm follower until he became a Christian:

> Augustine encountered Manichaean teaching soon after the impact of the Hortensius, and remained an adherent for nine years. His subsequent attacks on Manichaeism are a major source of information, but of course they are polemic against the system, not exposition of it. In the Confessions he is concerned with the effect of Manichaeism on his own relationship with God. Instead of explaining what he believed as a Manichaean and why, he denounces the aspects of his belief which, in the light of Platonist philosophy and the preaching of Ambrose, he had come to see as its major confusions. But it is now possible to give a general account of western Manichaeism which does not depend chiefly on Christian polemic... Several Manichaean texts have been discovered this century

[AgarikaJ]

But Buddhism and the Dhamma did reach ancient Europe!

Is this not commonly known?! We even learned this in (German) high school when talking about Greek philosophy...

The Greek colonists coming with Alexander the Great had several generations of contact back to Greece; while Greek art influences gave us human-like Buddha statues as we know them today (instead of footprints or wheels), many scholars believe that Greek Scepticism -- and therefore Stoicism -- were directly influenced by Buddhist philosophy. Pyrrho, the founder of scepticism, travelled several years in the region and learned there.
- https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... hanner.pdf

The Buddha talks about the 'Yonas', which might already identify direct contact between the Buddha himself and Indo-Greeks (in the Assalayana Sutta of the Majjima Nikaya).
- https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... s/yona.pdf

Buddhist ascetics were known and reported about by Greek historians travelling in this region.
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/44362383

There are coins of several Indo-Greek rulers with Buddhist symbolism on it, one of them Menander II (calling himself 'King of Dharma in Karoshti script on it).
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_II

And of course, the same Menander or his father is mentioned personally and prominently in the form of King Milinda even in the Pali Milindapañha (while not canonical in Thai and Sri Lankan Theravada, it is in the Burmese Burmese version of the Khuddaka Nikāya).
- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .kell.html

Chinese silk coming through the Silk Road, passing through the hands of the Mahyana Tocharians, were a common and sought-after trade good in ancient Rome and while direct trade commissions between Rome and Han China (the Romans called it 'Seres') were either happening very seldom or not at all, one must assume that trade connections to those Buddhist intermediaries were much stronger and there must have been direct exchange (Rome undertook significant effort to remove the Parthian middlemen to the silk trade and gain a more direct access to the Silk Road trade for example under Julius Ceasar and later emperors, as the large outflow of silver in exchange for the immensely expensive Chinese silk effected the Roman economy in a noticeable, negative way).
- https://www.unrv.com/economy/silk.php
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvh1dsv4
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maes_Titianus

Roman traders knew very well the western Indian trading ports, up until the tip including onwards to Sri Lanka; there are Imperial-era Roman maps with the length of sailing between each marked in detail, so there must have been direct exchange of Buddhist ideas along this route.
- https://www.jstor.org/stable/284208

Just recently, there have been Tocharian-style Buddhist pagoda paintings found in a coastal cave in Yemen, most likely coming with Indian traders utilizing intermediaries to pass trade goods along the Red Sea to Ancient Rome, bypassing the overland trade. There is a theory, that there were Nubian enclaves of Buddhist-like cultists, which would make this not seem all that outlandish.
- I cannot find the scientific article, but I read it just a few days ago

There were Buddhist traders living in Roman-controlled ancient Egypt, having most likely come though the same sea trade route from India.
- https://www.livescience.com/archaeology ... oman-times

Manicheism and the common knowledge of it in Roman christianity is already mentioned in this thread, the Buddha being one of the named four prophets besides Jesus.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Buddha_in_Manichaeism


Other maps like the Peutlinger Table suggest public knowledge of India, Sri Lanka and even China in late Roman and Byzantium times.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana

All of this is historically well known and proven, none of this is controversial. Links to scientific articles of proven historians to all the statements I made above are easily and quickly found, this is not speculation or outlandish theory. There are actually whole books dedicated to it.
- https://www.ancientportsantiques.com/wp ... in2014.pdf

However, why the direct contact between the Indo-Greek Buddhists and their homeland, or Tocharians and Indians with ancient Rome, never took off in promulgating a recognizable form of Buddhism, as it happened so extremely successful through Gandhara to China, Tibet and even Japan, is unknown.