Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

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Ceisiwr
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Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

"Contentment, loving-kindness and compassion. These are the path to peace"


Is my grammar correct?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā. ete santimagga

Post by SarathW »

With my little knowledge, it seems OK to me.
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by sphairos »

santimaggo

the first part seems fine. Regarding the second, I need to think a bit regarding the agreement of these words.
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:12 pm santimaggo

the first part seems fine. Regarding the second, I need to think a bit regarding the agreement of these words.
:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:35 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:12 pm santimaggo

the first part seems fine. Regarding the second, I need to think a bit regarding the agreement of these words.
:anjali:
So, regarding the second sentence, I think that, though linguistically and grammatically possible, it is unnatural. So it is less Pāli, and more English-in-Pāli. You know, when you don't know a language very well, and use the grammatical constructions of your native language with the words from your target language. Can also be grammatically correct, but unnatural.
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:35 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:12 pm santimaggo

the first part seems fine. Regarding the second, I need to think a bit regarding the agreement of these words.
:anjali:
So, regarding the second sentence, I think that, though linguistically and grammatically possible, it is unnatural. So it is less Pāli, and more English-in-Pāli. You know, when you don't know a language very well, and use the grammatical constructions of your native language with the words from your target language. Can also be grammatically correct, but unnatural.
Thanks. I'll take that as making some progress :jumping:

On a totally different topic, i was wondering if you could share your views on the best translation of Samādhi and Ekodi. I know for Ekodi the etymology is a little obscure.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by sphairos »

Hi C. !

Much more natural would be agreement in number: either both singular or both plural.

Translations are a very difficult matter: I wonder if they are possible at all.

Samādhi is sam + ā + dhā, i.e., is something like "co, well + near, towards + put", i.e., something well, neatly put together. From that comes "con + centration", "uni + fication", etc.

"Ekodi" -- the derivation/formation and etymology are unclear, but it is clear that it means "of one point", "of one limit", etc.
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:50 pm Hi C. !

Much more natural would be agreement in number: either both singular or both plural.

Translations are a very difficult matter: I wonder if they are possible at all.

Samādhi is sam + ā + dhā, i.e., is something like "co, well + near, towards + put", i.e., something well, neatly put together. From that comes "con + centration", "uni + fication", etc.

"Ekodi" -- the derivation/formation and etymology are unclear, but it is clear that it means "of one point", "of one limit", etc.
:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Sam Vara »

sphairos wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:50 pm
Samādhi is sam + ā + dhā, i.e., is something like "co, well + near, towards + put", i.e., something well, neatly put together. From that comes "con + centration", "uni + fication", etc.
In addition, "com+posure" fits quite nicely.
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by sphairos »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:05 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:50 pm
Samādhi is sam + ā + dhā, i.e., is something like "co, well + near, towards + put", i.e., something well, neatly put together. From that comes "con + centration", "uni + fication", etc.
In addition, "com+posure" fits quite nicely.
It does!
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Suddh »

Ete would seem better rendered as ayaṃ. Ayameva has a nice ring to it...

"Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo seyyathīdaṃ sammādiṭṭhi sammāsaṅkappo...sammāsamādhi. Ayaṃ kho sā bhikkhave majjhimā paṭipadā..."
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:59 pm Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

"Contentment, loving-kindness and compassion. These are the path to peace"


Is my grammar correct?
Since the nouns in the first clause are feminine, the demonstrative should be etā. And in the second clause I think you'd be better served by an explicit copula than a merely implied one:

Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

So now we have a form-equivalent translation of your English sentence that's grammatically impeccable.

Unfortunately, as is often the case with form-equivalent renderings, it just isn't the natural way of expressing the thought in the target language. Also, stylistically it's a McGonagallesque disaster.

So let's give it a four-step stylistic makeover.

Step 1: Unless there's some semantic imperative for ordering the first three nouns the way you have, it would be better to order them according to the waxing syllables rule: 2-syllable mettā followed by 3-syllable karuṇā followed by 4-syllable appicchatā.

Mettā ca karuṇā ca appicchatā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

Step 2: If we're aiming at a pithily memorable slogan rather than a shopping list, we should cut down the occurrences of ca to just one.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā, etā santimaggo honti.

Or:

Mettā karuṇā appicchatā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

Step 3: The sentence can be made more natural by beginning the second clause with a singular demonstrative eso whose referent will be the first clause itself, as opposed to the items in that clause. This will then allow us to ditch honti.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā, eso santimaggo.

Or:

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso santimaggo.

Step 4: Reduce the disparity in the length of the two clauses by breaking up the santimagga compound and adding some indeclinable particle:

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso maggo hi santiyā.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso’va maggo santiyā.

These are passable enough prose renderings. With a touch of sandhi and the complete ditching of ca we might also turn out an Aṭṭhakavagga-style octosyllabic half-stanza:

Mettā karuṇ’appicchatā,
esa maggo hi santiyā.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:59 pm Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca. ete santimagga

"Contentment, loving-kindness and compassion. These are the path to peace"


Is my grammar correct?
Since the nouns in the first clause are feminine, the demonstrative should be etā. And in the second clause I think you'd be better served by an explicit copula than a merely implied one:

Appicchatā ca mettā ca karuṇā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

So now we have a form-equivalent translation of your English sentence that's grammatically impeccable.

Unfortunately, as is often the case with form-equivalent renderings, it just isn't the natural way of expressing the thought in the target language. Also, stylistically it's a McGonagallesque disaster.

So let's give it a four-step stylistic makeover.

Step 1: Unless there's some semantic imperative for ordering the first three nouns the way you have, it would be better to order them according to the waxing syllables rule: 2-syllable mettā followed by 3-syllable karuṇā followed by 4-syllable appicchatā.

Mettā ca karuṇā ca appicchatā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

Step 2: If we're aiming at a pithily memorable slogan rather than a shopping list, we should cut down the occurrences of ca to just one.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā, etā santimaggo honti.

Or:

Mettā karuṇā appicchatā ca, etā santimaggo honti.

Step 3: The sentence can be made more natural by beginning the second clause with a singular demonstrative eso whose referent will be the first clause itself, as opposed to the items in that clause. This will then allow us to ditch honti.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā, eso santimaggo.

Or:

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso santimaggo.

Step 4: Reduce the disparity in the length of the two clauses by breaking up the santimagga compound and adding some indeclinable particle:

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso maggo hi santiyā.

Mettā karuṇā ca appicchatā'ti, eso’va maggo santiyā.

These are passable enough prose renderings. With a touch of sandhi and the complete ditching of ca we might also turn out an Aṭṭhakavagga-style octosyllabic half-stanza:

Mettā karuṇ’appicchatā,
esa maggo hi santiyā.
Thank you Bhante. Very helpful and informative as ever. Nice to see you posting here again too.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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