Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cause_and_Effect
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Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

The Buddha was teaching the Eightfold path and taught the Ariya way, but was following the sramana tradition which likely has origins with the Dravidian Indus Valley and the yogic tradition.
So can we see the Buddha Dhamma as a merging of these two great traditions?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

2700-Year-Old-Yogi-in-Samadhi-Found-in-Indus-Valley-Civilization-Archaeological-Site.jpg
Samadhi from 5000 years ago, the earliest evidence of the Sramana path.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Goofaholix
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Goofaholix »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:56 am The Buddha was teaching the Eightfold path and taught the Ariya way, but was following the sramana tradition which likely has origins with the Dravidian Indus Valley and the yogic tradition.
So can we see the Buddha Dhamma as a merging of these two great traditions?
What's the other one? If you mean the Vedic tradition of the Aryans I think not so much, he just used the term Ariya because it had come to mean noble, the Aryans having by then become the nobility as is usually the case when one people conquers another.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:17 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:56 am The Buddha was teaching the Eightfold path and taught the Ariya way, but was following the sramana tradition which likely has origins with the Dravidian Indus Valley and the yogic tradition.
So can we see the Buddha Dhamma as a merging of these two great traditions?
What's the other one? If you mean the Vedic tradition of the Aryans I think not so much, he just used the term Ariya because it had come to mean noble,
Are you saying the Aryan contribution is mainly just superficial naming? Why would the Buddha use this convention if there was no connection? I would disagree, since he also uses a cosmology that is partly aligned with theirs eg Sakka/Indra and the pantheon of gods more broadly across the pagan world. Of course, it has been much more developed and fully elucidated in the Dhamma.
Goofaholix wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:17 am the Aryans having by then become the nobility as is usually the case when one people conquers another.
I also dont think an invasion or conquest is the standard way of thinking about it now. Although the steppe herders or 'Aryan' related gene flow is largely patriarchal implying likely movement of male hersdman, there are large regions of the Swat Valley where they have found the intermarriage was predominantly matrilineal, that is Arya women were being married to Indus Valley men as the most common pairing. This implies much more of a cultural diffusion and assimilation as one would expect when tribes of pastoralists encounter a highly advanced urban civilization.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
sphairos
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by sphairos »

Renowned Finnish scholar Asko Parpola, in his book Deciphering the Indus Script, convincingly demonstrated that these images are just sitting bulls from Proto-Elam. There is no "Yogic lotus" in the image. There is no yogin.

All scholars agree that Indus Valley civilization was heavily influenced by Sumer and Akkad. So, this is the most plausible interpretation.

What you interpret as "samadhi" is also just a type of burial, which is met in other cultures.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

sphairos wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:19 pm Renowned Finnish scholar Asko Parpola, in his book Deciphering the Indus Script, convincingly demonstrated that these images are just sitting bulls from Proto-Elam. There is no "Yogic lotus" in the image. There is no yogin.
He hasn't 'demonstrated' anything. Its possible, but its a theory.
sphairos wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:19 pm What you interpret as "samadhi" is also just a type of burial, which is met in other cultures.
If so its highly atypical. I haven't been able to see examples of other ancient archeological sites with people buried in meditation posture.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


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Goofaholix
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Goofaholix »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:32 pm Are you saying the Aryan contribution is mainly just superficial naming?
No, more cultural.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:32 pm Why would the Buddha use this convention if there was no connection?
Nobility is a general concept, it isn't owned by one religion.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:32 pm I would disagree, since he also uses a cosmology that is partly aligned with theirs eg Sakka/Indra and the pantheon of gods more broadly across the pagan world. Of course, it has been much more developed and fully elucidated in the Dhamma.
I think he used Brahmin cosmology as a teaching tool when teaching Brahmins, if there is more to it than that it isn't 50% of the Buddhadhamma.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:24 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:32 pm Are you saying the Aryan contribution is mainly just superficial naming?
No, more cultural.
They aren't really entirely separate cultures anyway. I dont think the Dravidian contribution has been understood or seen in its true extent until now.

Heres a question...where did the Aryan and later European lineages originate from? They didn't come out of thin air.

Europeans just selectively lost skin color over last 6-7000 years due to climate adaptation, it happened far faster than you would think.

The two main European lineages, aside from the aboriginal European Western Hunter Gatherer, did not come straight from Africa...they came via somewhere around India/Iran and then into Europe. They would have been somewhat like Dravidians, who have an uncanny resemblance to Western Europeans due to this archaic and little discussed relation that far predates the Indo-European language and North Indian population link.

"A major US study at Penn State University found that Europeans' light skin stems from a gene mutation from a single person who lived 10,000 years ago...The pattern of people with this lighter skin color mutation suggests that the A111T mutation occurred somewhere between the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent."

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/iris ... kin-origin
main-qimg-ae30c7781232bc1aeab5c0aeaf8cf326-lq.jpeg.jpg
Albinism
Septre.jpg
prince-harry-3.jpg


So the Aryan migration to the Indus Valley was in a sense, a return migration. 'They came back as Aryans'
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
sphairos
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by sphairos »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:38 pm So the Aryan migration to the Indus Valley was in a sense, a return migration. 'They came back as Aryans'
Brah. Gotta be careful with them shrooms!

:jumping: :rofl:
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Neo
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Neo »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:56 am The Buddha Dhamma as a merging of traditions?
No. https://suttacentral.net/dn27/
There came a time when an aristocrat, “Vocation” is dhamma, which is rarely used in the suttas in this sense; normally it is universal.brahmin, peasant, or menial, deprecating their own vocation, went forth from the lay life to homelessness, thinking, ‘I will be an ascetic.’

From these four circles, Vāseṭṭha, the circle of ascetics(sramana) was created; for those very beings, not others; for those like them, not unlike; by virtue of principle, not against principle. For principle, Vāseṭṭha, is the best thing for people in both this life and the next.
This sramana tradition was reclaimed by Buddha as, "this is what my lineage had been doing, so am I".


To further add, as per the ancient classification given in dn27,
: -
all human beings today who do one or the other job/work for livelihood and have been born out of sex belong to "peasants" community.
Those who depend upon hunting to live and do normal daily chores only, belong to "menials".

Those who lead others in terms of dhamma, not indulged in sexual intercourse or any kind of pleasure activity, maintaining 5 precepts at body, speech, mind level are "kings".

Those who practice meditation by leaving behind all the bad , unskillfully things are "Brahmins" (same as for kings except that these are practitioners, not the leaders).

So those who take into consideration the categories based on spiritual establishment & activities, king is the highest. This is not based on labels among sexual offsprings and their following lineages rather it is based on labels via spiritual activities and establishment.
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Neo wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:41 pm ~
Can you clarify what exactly you mean here or the point you are trying to make?

The Buddha was following an established tradition of the wandering asectic, a non Vedic or Brahmanical tradition, yet adopted many elements of Brahmanical symbology, cosmology and terminology.
sphairos wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:24 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:38 pm So the Aryan migration to the Indus Valley was in a sense, a return migration. 'They came back as Aryans'
Brah. Gotta be careful with them shrooms!
I mean I am stretching things to say that...but its one of those things thats a half joke - not fully true, but also kind of true also.
:lol:
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Neo
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Neo »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:26 pm
Neo wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:41 pm ~
Can you clarify what exactly you mean here or the point you are trying to make?
How it all started? These different traditions.

No doubt, what you call Vedic came before ascetics tradition but it was considered low during those times.

Vedics : rcitations and various studies/practices done by weak mediators nearby town.

Read DN27 for more clarity. Take time to absorb it.

I came to read this few weeks back and in my case, I felt proud after reading dn27.
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Re: Aryan and Dravidian, Vedic and Sramana

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Neo wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:40 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:26 pm
Neo wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:41 pm ~
Can you clarify what exactly you mean here or the point you are trying to make?
How it all started? These different traditions.

No doubt, what you call Vedic came before ascetics tradition but it was considered low during those times.

Vedics : rcitations and various studies/practices done by weak mediators nearby town.

Read DN27 for more clarity. Take time to absorb it.

I came to read this few weeks back and in my case, I felt proud after reading dn27.
I will make a detailed look at DN27. I disagree however that the Vedic tradition came before the sramana or ascetic tradition.
Surely the acestic tradition in its various forms, including that of self-mortification, meditation and austerities is - alongside shamanism- the oldest form of spiritual tradition known to man.
It is the basic quest for self knowledge and self realization.
In fact, the Buddha had stated that the Vedas were composed by seers originally and even named them.

Then the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika thought: “When the ascetic Gotama catches my eye, I shall ask him a question.”
Then, knowing with his own mind the thought in the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika’s mind, the Blessed One turned his eye toward him.
Then the brahmin student Kāpaṭhika thought: “The ascetic Gotama has turned toward me. Suppose I ask him a question.”
Then he said to the Blessed One: “Master Gotama, in regard to the ancient brahmin hymns that have come down through oral transmission, preserved in the collections, the brahmins come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ What does Master Gotama say about this?”

“How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even a single brahmin who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”
—“No, Master Gotama.”

“How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even a single teacher or a single teacher’s teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”
—“No, Master Gotama.”

“How then, Bhāradvāja, the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns, whose ancient hymns that were formerly chanted, uttered, and compiled, the brahmins nowadays still chant and repeat, repeating what was spoken and reciting what was recited—that is, Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, and Bhagu—did even these ancient brahmin seers say thus: ‘We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”
—“No, Master Gotama.”

“So, Bhāradvāja, it seems that among the brahmins there is not even a single brahmin who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ And among the brahmins there is not even a single teacher or a single teacher’s teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers, who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’

And the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns ... even these ancient brahmin seers did not say thus: ‘We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ Suppose there were a file of blind men each in touch with the next: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. So too, Bhāradvāja, in regard to their statement the brahmins seem to be like a file of blind men: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. What do you think, Bhāradvāja, that being so, does not the faith of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?”


MN 95
So one could say that the Brahmanical tradition was based on the insights of ascetics originally that were written down and became an accepted doctrine over the millenia.
The Buddhas ascetic knowledge in this sense superceded the original Vedic seers knowledge and by extension the authority of the Brahmins which is why they didn't like it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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