vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

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Alex123
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vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

I have a pali question. In Satipatthana suttas it says "Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī [alex: and other 3] viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ"

Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. MN10 Ven TB translation
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief MN10 Soma Thera

Herein (in this teaching) a monk lives contemplating the body in the body,[1] ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; MN10 Nyanasatta Thera
"Having overcome", before contemplation or after?

Thank you.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm Hello all,

I have a pali question. In Satipatthana suttas it says "Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī [alex: and other 3] viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ"

Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. MN10 Ven TB translation
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief MN10 Soma Thera

Herein (in this teaching) a monk lives contemplating the body in the body,[1] ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; MN10 Nyanasatta Thera
"Having overcome", before contemplation or after?

Thank you.
The 4 foundations of mindfulness are a means to overcome the hindrances and what is contemplated when they are given up.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by santa100 »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm Hello all,

I have a pali question. In Satipatthana suttas it says "Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī [alex: and other 3] viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ"

Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. MN10 Ven TB translation
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief MN10 Soma Thera

Herein (in this teaching) a monk lives contemplating the body in the body,[1] ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; MN10 Nyanasatta Thera
"Having overcome", before contemplation or after?

Thank you.
Probably both depending on how advanced the individual is with their practice. Since MN 10, Satipatthana, should be practiced by followers of all levels, the novice would need on-going and persistent work, while the accomplished might already "have put away" covetousness and grief for the world.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by mjaviem »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm ...
Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
...
"Having overcome", before contemplation or after?
...
You aren't abiding in contemplation if covetousness and disgust are still there. You don't look like a commited-to-his-work turner in this case, do you?
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Sam Vara »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm Hello all,

I have a pali question. In Satipatthana suttas it says "Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī [alex: and other 3] viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ"

Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. MN10 Ven TB translation
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief MN10 Soma Thera

Herein (in this teaching) a monk lives contemplating the body in the body,[1] ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; MN10 Nyanasatta Thera
"Having overcome", before contemplation or after?

Thank you.
I think it makes sense to read this as having overcome those qualities before what is described in the rest of the sentence. It is, I think, the absolutive of vineti (he removes or takes away: vi - neti). So it is referring to an action prior to the main action of the sentence, which is the contemplation; "having removed" the greed and distress, the contemplation is done. The translations work exactly the same in English. To say "Having done X, he does Y" can only mean that he completes X before doing Y.

(Vineyya can also mean "fit to be trained", a future passive participle, but that is I think a red herring here as although the monk is indeed fit to be trained, it doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence)
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Alex123 »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:37 pm I think it makes sense to read this as having overcome those qualities before what is described in the rest of the sentence.

Thank you, Sam Vara!

So is it possible to translate that pali as:
"After one overcomes covetousness and grief in this world (loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ), one remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful."
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Sam Vara »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:37 pm I think it makes sense to read this as having overcome those qualities before what is described in the rest of the sentence.

Thank you, Sam Vara!

So is it possible to translate that pali as:
"After one overcomes covetousness and grief in this world (loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ), one remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful."
I guess so, yes, but in my view the "having overcome" version is a bit better. It gives the sense of the first action being a precondition for the second (i.e. you have to overcome before you can contemplate...) rather than just a sequence that happens that way.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

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https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... #discourse
THE FOUR AROUSINGS OF MINDFULNESS
"What are the four?

"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief."
[..]
THE CONTEMPLATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS
"And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?

"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken state of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of consciousness, as the distracted state;
By definition moments of satipatthana are mahakusala, hence without any covetousness and grief. However those moments of satipatthana always take a just fallen away object, which may well be lust or anger or grief.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
There are a couple of old threads by Assaji (Dmytro) which go into the grammar of the term.

A short thread on vineyya itself.
viewtopic.php?p=245680

And a long thread on sati but with several posts discussing vineyya.
viewtopic.php?p=167808

The first thread contains a link to a piece that I posted to a now-defunct forum many years ago. It's an attempt at a comprehensive treatment of the range of meanings of the Pali absolutive. Being very old, the Pali transliteration is in Velthuis format. So here's an updated version in IAST format:

In the ancient grammars the participles in -tvā, -tūna, and -tvāna have several more syntactical functions than one will find listed in Warder. It might be useful to list them.

The examples below are taken from the Saddanīti of Aggavaṃsa and the Pāliveyyākaraṇa of Prince Vajirañāṇavarorasa.

1) Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā.
Action denoted by the tvā-particle comes first (pubbakālakiriyā); action denoted by the finite verb comes after (uttarakālakiriyā).

dhammaṃ sutvā gāmaṃ paccāgacchati.
Having heard the Dhamma he returned to the village.

kasitvā vapati.
Having ploughed [the field] he sows [the seed].

2) Samānakālakiriyā.
Indicates simultaneity of the actions denoted by the finite verb and the tvā-particle.

chattaṃ gahetvā gacchati.
He walks holding a parasol.

3) Aparakālakiriyā.
Action denoted by the tvā-particle follows an action denoted by a finite verb. Prince V. gives the example:

dhammāsane nisīdi cittavījaniṃ gahetvā.
He sat down on the Dhamma-teaching seat and took hold of the decorated fan.

I don't recall ever meeting with a sentence like the above in any actual text.

Aggavaṃsa gives:

dvāraṃ āvaritvā pavisati.
He entered and [then] closed the door.

He states that this sentence might also be samānakālakiriyā if the man happened to close the door while he was entering.

4) Pariyosānakālakiriyā.
According to Prince V. this means that the tvā-particle reiterates some finite verb in order to show that the action denoted by the latter is completed.

yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami, upasaṅkamitvā ... nisīdi.
He approached to where the Blessed One was; having approached ... he sat down.

I think the Prince's definition is too narrow and makes the distinction between pubbakālakiriyā and pariyosānakālakiriyā seem a bit artificial and unnecessary. It is also at odds with how pariyosānakālakiriyā is used by vinayadharas. For them it doesn't entail repetition of a finite verb, but rather, that the action of the tvā-particle (or equivalent) must terminate in (or be brought to an end by: pariyosāpeti) the action of the finite verb that follows. For example, in the phrase "sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropeyya" it makes a material difference in assessing a monk's guilt whether sañcicca is construed as pubbakālakiriyā or pariyosānakālakiriyā; vinayadharas are at pains to stress that it is the latter.

5) Visesanaṃ (adjectival)

ṭhapetvā dve aggasāvake avasesā arahattaṃ pāpuṇiṃsu.
The two chief disciples set aside, all the rest attained arahantship.
Apart from the two chief disciples, all the rest attained arahantship.

6) Kiriyāvisesanaṃ (adverbial)

tīṇi ratanāni ṭhapetvā aññaṃ me paṭisaraṇaṃ n'atthi.
There is not, setting aside the three jewels, another refuge for me.
There is no other refuge for me apart from the three jewels.

The distinction between #5 and 6 doesn't come across very clearly in English translation. In #5 ṭhapetvā functions as an adjective qualifying dve aggasāvake. In #6 it functions as an adverb qualifying n'atthi.

7) Hetu (causal).
The action of the (often unstated) subject is expressed in the tvā-particle and is the cause of the action indicated by the finite verb.

gacchāmi'dāni nibbānaṃ, yattha gantvā na socati.
I go now to Nibbāna, where, because of going there, one sorrows not.
I go now to Nibbāna, whither having gone one sorrows not.

In this causal usage the subject of the finite verb will often differ from that of the tvā-particle:

sīhaṃ disvā bhayaṃ uppajjati.
On account of seeing a lion fear arises [in him].
Fear arises in him at the sight of a lion.

ghataṃ pivitvā balaṃ jāyate.
He, having drunk ghee, strength arises [in him].
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by frank k »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:37 am ...
So which one of the 7 do you favor for the sati formula? simultaneous, sequential, causal?
My impression is most translators seem to favor "having removed greed and distress, AND THEN they see body as a body."
Did that list of 7 also include an imperative?
I always thought "one SHOULD remove greed and desire while one sees the body as a body." was grammatically possible.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by mjaviem »

frank k wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:44 am ...
I always thought "one SHOULD remove greed and desire while one sees the body as a body." was grammatically possible.
How can you see X as X when full of greed. Not possible in my view. It doesn't sound optional to me. But let's wait to learn about grammatical possibilities here.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Neo »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm ..
Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
..
:idea:
The more one observes mindfully by contemplating and comprehending as in right understanding and right effort, the more one overcomes covetousness and grief.

It cannot be said to be one after other.

Samyak smriti, samyak vyāyām, samyak ditthi together work.

This overcome of grief and greed is like a fruit. More it will be tastier, of better quality and in quantity, the more one practices using above 3.
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm Hello all,

I have a pali question. In Satipatthana suttas it says "Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī [alex: and other 3] viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ"

Does "vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ" refer to what happens prior to kāye kāyānupassī or after?
The following passage suggests that it is after kāye kāyānupassī.

AN 4.198: Ven. Bodhi translation. Ven. Sujato translation https://sc.readingfaithfully.org/?q=an4.198
So pacchābhattaṁ piṇḍapātapaṭikkanto nisīdati pallaṅkaṁ ābhujitvā ujuṁ kāyaṁ paṇidhāya parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā.
“After his meal, on returning from his alms round, he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, straightening his body, and establishing mindfulness in front of him.

So abhijjhaṁ loke pahāya vigatābhijjhena cetasā viharati, abhijjhāya cittaṁ parisodheti.
Having abandoned longing for the world, he dwells with a mind free from longing; he purifies his mind from longing.

Byāpādapadosaṁ pahāya abyāpannacitto viharati sabbapāṇabhūtahitānukampī, byāpādapadosā cittaṁ parisodheti.
Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a mind free from ill will, compassionate toward all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred.

Thinamiddhaṁ pahāya vigatathinamiddho viharati ālokasaññī sato sampajāno, thinamiddhā cittaṁ parisodheti.
Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells free from dullness and drowsiness, percipi-ent of light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness.

Uddhaccakukkuccaṁ pahāya anuddhato viharati ajjhattaṁ vūpasantacitto, uddhaccakukkuccā cittaṁ parisodheti.
Having abandoned restlessness and remorse, he dwells without agitation, with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse.

Vicikicchaṁ pahāya tiṇṇavicikiccho viharati akathaṅkathī kusalesu dhammesu, vicikicchāya cittaṁ parisodheti.
Having abandoned doubt, he dwells having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome qualities; he purifies his mind from doubt.

So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe
“Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, defilements of the mind, qualities that weaken wisdom,

vivicceva kāmehi …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, ... , fourth jhāna
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:44 am So which one of the 7 do you favor for the sati formula? simultaneous, sequential, causal?
Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā.
frank k wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:44 am Did that list of 7 also include an imperative?
That wouldn't be possible. The imperative is a grammatical mood, but non-finite verb forms (of which the absolutive is one) are moodless.
frank k wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:44 amI always thought "one SHOULD remove greed and desire while one sees the body as a body." was grammatically possible.
A "should" will only be grammatically possible if we take vineyya to be a finite verb rather than an absolutive, i.e., if we take it to be vinayati in the third person singular optative.

Taking it so will then require us to construe the syntax in a different way. Instead of a participial clause and a dependent clause, we shall have two independent but coordinated clauses. In that case the "while" in your proposed translation would be impossible. Instead the translation will go something like this:

“Here, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful and he should put away covetousness and grief for the world.”

As far as I know, no translator has ever opted for such a construal. Three things make it improbable.

Semantically there's no rhyme or reason to having viharati and vineyya in different moods. If the sentence is descriptive they should both be indicative. If it's prescriptive they should both be optative.

Syntactically it's flawed because of the absence of a coordinating conjunction joining the two clauses.

Stylistically it's inelegant because vineyya is in the wrong place. In an SOV language like Pali we should expect it to come after loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ before or after kāye kāyānupassī ?

Post by frank k »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:10 pm ...
Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā.
...
That wouldn't be possible. The imperative is a grammatical mood, but non-finite verb forms (of which the absolutive is one) are moodless.
...
Thanks Venerable.
To clarify: imperative is impossible in that case, but optative is possible but unlikely for the 3 reasons you stated?

Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā: in this case means vineyya loke comes first, then kaye kaya anupassi comes next.
In other words, first one abandons 5 hindrances, THEN they see body as body?

If we understand that to mean one can't see body as a body (as it truly is) without having first abandoned 5 hindrances,
that makes sense,

but if we interpret that instruction as one can not [be practicing to] simultaneously be attempting to abandon 5 hindrances and seeing body as it truly is, that doesn't make sense to me.

Which is why I ask why simultaneous practice of those two actions is not one of the 7 grammatical options in this case of sati practice.
edit: I think Bhante only suggests it's his opinion Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā applies here, not that simultaneous or 'seeing body' happening before abandon 5 hindrances is not grammatically possible.
Last edited by frank k on Sun Apr 14, 2024 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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