Momentariness

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Not easily. If I drop a brick on my foot it's going to hurt, right?
Sure.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:47 am
Goofaholix wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:43 am It's about anicca, momentariness is just a way of understanding anicca in my opinion.
Yes momentariness is all about understanding impermanence, dukkha and the lack of substance.
How are indivisible discrete moments not 'substances' or 'atoms' or 'entities'?
In CT they are qualities only, or natures or events.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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Noble Sangha
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Noble Sangha »

It's been awhile, hope all of us living beings are doing well. I'm writing this post in hope to provide an example out of many that could be used to prove the teaching of 'momentariness" without someone needing to attain any jhana's or special powers to be able to see it. In fact, one could just use their everyday experiences to see "momentariness".

Imagine that I'm saying "Hello" to you all and that you're hearing this. When I say the word "Hello" or pretty much any words, what's happening is momentariness taking place. For me to complete saying the word "hello" or any words, momentariness is absolutely needed. Because momentariness is what allows me to complete / finish saying the word "Hello". If there is no such thing as momentariness, each phenomenons and preceding phenomenons would not be able to take place. To make things simple, imagine saying the word hello takes 2 phenomenon or intentions. "Hel" "lo", when I first start saying "Hel", it is precisely because of momentariness that takes place where I can say (or to arise) "lo" next after "Hel". It is because of momentariness that takes place that allows the next change of phenomenon that we experience to take place. If one contemplates this carefully, one could possibly start to see how "momentariness" takes place in all of our experiences.

It's not really convenient to use a cell phone to engage in discussion. So I'm going to refrain from saying more for the time being but would like bring up again what Ceisiwr posted in his OP.

"There is no permanent existence,
nor are the constituent elements eternal;
the elements of existence [aggregates] arise,
and pass away repeatedly."

Knowing this peril I am not concerned with existence,
being detached from all sensual pleasures.
I have gained the annihilation,
Of the āsavas.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
BrokenBones
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Re: Momentariness

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 10:28 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:37 pm The teaching of anicca is to help people develop dispassion. Momentariness is just a metaphysical dead end.

Considering our own and others mortality is possibly the peak teaching of impermanence.

Contemplation of death is a real in your face teaching that leads to dispassion. How can the idea of momentariness lead to dispassion? It's just mindless speculation.

A dead body on the other hand is pretty real.
:goodpost:

One source of my suffering is the knowledge of aging and death, and that's because I see the body as "me" and "mine".
But it's gross impermanence which is the "problem" here, not the continual changes going in in my body, or whatever.
How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Have you read the sutta?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin

Foam & mirage refers to how we take a fleeting thing that is impermanent & illusory and invest it with permanency & identity. It has nothing to do with momentariness.
pegembara
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Re: Momentariness

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Not easily. If I drop a brick on my foot it's going to hurt, right?
But how is it most of the time we're not even aware of its existence especially when we're actively engaged with another activity.

So is the body there all time or only when something is happening to it? Or only when we think of it.

Doesn't it flash in and out of your awareness or consciousness like a bubble?
Same goes for feelings, thoughts.

That's how the nervous system works ie. via nerve impulses.

You are just enjoying the scenery without any care until you stepped on a nail. From a beautiful sight, the experience changes to pain, then sight of blood, then fear and thoughts.

One moment just the beautiful mountain and the next moment the body and another moment maybe anger for being so clumsy.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Momentariness" is inescapable, because the regular and constant transformation of created things that we measure and call "time" is registered on terms of particular states that differ from other particular states during this constant flux of change, decay, age, or whatever we call it. These particular states are "moments," and in everyday non-Abhidharmic usage, these moments can be of variable length. A moment is simply that: a "moment."

Think of the moment that you read the word "inescapable" in this post. Then think about the moment you read the word "variable." "Moments" are inescapable, because change, transformation, decay, age, etc., is inescapable in relation to the created, to the saṃskṛta, to the saṅkhata.

The tricky part with the "classical" theory of "momentariness" is that it argues that there is a "planck length" to degrees of transformation, or at the very least, a "planck length" inherent in the capability of the sentient mental apparatus to process incoming data from cognitive-sensory processes and present it, or transfer it, or direct it (or what-have-you) to the rational and/or reasoning processes and suchlike.

Modern particle physics actually shows us that there is constant and deep fundamental transformation present even in what might appear to us as solid and still and slowly changing... as opposed to things like the certain particular positionings at specific times of, say, aloft snowflakes in a blizzard or that of droplets of water in a running river, etc. These mercurial and quick phenomena are obviously constantly changing, to the point where this wisdom is so universally ubiquitous that it even finds itself popping up in places like Pocahontas's song about river-bends in a famous Disney animated children's film. What's harder to see as constantly and rapidly changing in a deep and fundamental way, and at speeds that surpass the natural perceptual capabilities of biological senses, is something like a massive rock, or a dinner plate sitting on a table, or the Statue of Liberty. Yet, at the level of the Higgs field, these so-called "solid" objects are vacuous fields of mostly empty space that are elaborated with constant and rapid particle-wave interactions, vast quantities of beyond-microscopic interactions that configure themselves, reconfigure themselves, and deconstruct themselves, and that occur with lightening speed.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Zom
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Zom »

these so-called "solid" objects are vacuous fields of mostly empty space that are elaborated with constant and rapid particle-wave interactions, vast quantities of beyond-microscopic interactions that configure themselves, reconfigure themselves, and deconstruct themselves, and that occur with lightening speed..
This is where animitta cetosamadhi works -) Allows to see, but without permanent nimittas.
As always, [real] jhana is required. 8-)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 10:28 am

:goodpost:

One source of my suffering is the knowledge of aging and death, and that's because I see the body as "me" and "mine".
But it's gross impermanence which is the "problem" here, not the continual changes going in in my body, or whatever.
How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Have you read the sutta?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin

Foam & mirage refers to how we take a fleeting thing that is impermanent & illusory and invest it with permanency & identity. It has nothing to do with momentariness.
If they are without a core how can they persist through time?
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

Part of the difficulty with this discussion IMO is maybe the difficult and very abstract language we are using, language that is necessarily difficult and abstract because it is signifying underlying meanings that are similarly difficult and abstract.

An apple is coreless. It has no core. It is "asāra," but an apple also does have a core. It's where the seeds are stored.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:24 pm Part of the difficulty with this discussion IMO is maybe the difficult and very abstract language we are using, language that is necessarily difficult and abstract because it is signifying underlying meanings that are similarly difficult and abstract.

An apple is coreless. It has no core. It is "asāra," but an apple also does have a core. It's where the seeds are stored.
In terms of the two truths, yes.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
BrokenBones
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Re: Momentariness

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:29 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am

How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Have you read the sutta?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin

Foam & mirage refers to how we take a fleeting thing that is impermanent & illusory and invest it with permanency & identity. It has nothing to do with momentariness.
If they are without a core how can they persist through time?

The Buddha wasn't really into metaphysical speculation and theories.

“Bhikkhus, both formerly and now what I teach is suffering and the cessation of suffering."

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

Taking a few similes, stretching their meaning and using them as the basis for the momentariness doctrine seems a bit of a stretch.

There's no need to go searching for rabbit holes when the teachings are so clear...


Then Moliyasivaka the wanderer went to the Blessed One and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "'The Dhamma is visible here-&-now, the Dhamma is visible here-&-now,' it is said. To what extent is the Dhamma visible here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves?"

"Very well, then, Sivaka, I will ask you a question in return. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: When greed is present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is present within me'? And when greed is not present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is not present within me'?"

"Yes, lord."

"The fact that when greed is present within you, you discern that greed is present within you; and when greed is not present within you, you discern that greed is not present within you: that is one way in which the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.

"What do you think: When aversion is present within you... When delusion is present within you... When a greedy quality[1] is present within you... When an aversive quality is present within you...

"What do you think: When a delusive quality is present within you, do you discern that 'A delusive quality is present within me'? And when a delusive quality is not present within you, do you discern that 'A delusive quality is not present within me'?"

"Yes, lord."

"The fact that when a delusive quality is present within you, you discern that a delusive quality is present within you; and when a delusive quality is not present within you, you discern that a delusive quality is not present within you: that is one way in which the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way the has Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Spiny Norman
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:29 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:49 am

How do you understand the body being like foam, or a mirage?
Have you read the sutta?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin

Foam & mirage refers to how we take a fleeting thing that is impermanent & illusory and invest it with permanency & identity. It has nothing to do with momentariness.
If they are without a core how can they persist through time?
Bodies persist through time, but eventually they age and die, which is a source of suffering.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
BrokenBones
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Re: Momentariness

Post by BrokenBones »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:49 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:29 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:36 pm

Have you read the sutta?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/suj ... ript=latin

Foam & mirage refers to how we take a fleeting thing that is impermanent & illusory and invest it with permanency & identity. It has nothing to do with momentariness.
If they are without a core how can they persist through time?
Bodies persist through time, but eventually they age and die, which is a source of suffering.
This 🔝 is a source of suffering and its understanding is the goal... not some sub atomic Vedic metaphysics.

It's like certain folk think we don't know that things are made up of atoms; winking in and out of existence... but so what? It's not important to or part of the Buddha's training.
justindesilva
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Re: Momentariness

Post by justindesilva »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:34 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:49 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:29 pm

If they are without a core how can they persist through time?
Bodies persist through time, but eventually they age and die, which is a source of suffering.
This 🔝 is a source of suffering and its understanding is the goal... not some sub atomic Vedic metaphysics.

It's like certain folk think we don't know that things are made up of atoms; winking in and out of existence... but so what? It's not important to or part of the Buddha's training.
In phena sutta we got to realise that from rupa which are sound light, smell touch as electronic waves reach our eyes, ear, nose and make contact with its bodily base and create feeling vedana. The electronic signal in the brain makes its own sangna or pattern. Our past memory suggests a pattern or sankara that holds in vingnana depending on our ignorance often fooling us. All being electronic. signals are not solid . Subject to change.
During the budda period except budda others had no knowledge of electrical signals where budda adopted phena sutta as such.
BrokenBones
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Re: Momentariness

Post by BrokenBones »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:27 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:34 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:49 am

Bodies persist through time, but eventually they age and die, which is a source of suffering.
This 🔝 is a source of suffering and its understanding is the goal... not some sub atomic Vedic metaphysics.

It's like certain folk think we don't know that things are made up of atoms; winking in and out of existence... but so what? It's not important to or part of the Buddha's training.
In phena sutta we got to realise that from rupa which are sound light, smell touch as electronic waves reach our eyes, ear, nose and make contact with its bodily base and create feeling vedana. The electronic signal in the brain makes its own sangna or pattern. Our past memory suggests a pattern or sankara that holds in vingnana depending on our ignorance often fooling us. All being electronic. signals are not solid . Subject to change.
During the budda period except budda others had no knowledge of electrical signals where budda adopted phena sutta as such.
👍

Have fun with that 😃
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