European Buddhism

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Radix
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Radix »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 9:13 pm They say that in the age of the Dharma-death every man will be his own wheel-turner.

That's quite transparently adapted from the anti-Reformation trope that now every illiterate peasant gets to be their own Pope. It's classist, it's elitist, it's morally wrong, but gosh darnit if it isn't accurate.
On the other hand, this stance reflects the abandonment of all responsibility that the religious/spiritual leaders/authorities might have for their underlings. "We are the religious/spiritual leaders/authorities, and we don't care whether you, the underling, live or die. You're on your own. (But you still owe us respect, admiration, and taxes.)"

Say what you want about Mother Church, but at least nominally, she considers herself responsible for the wellbeing of her children. There is no such thing in modern Buddhism. We're on our own, left to ourselves.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Suddh
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Suddh »

It can be logically inferred that:

Most Europeans have not associated enough with people of integrity. Those who have hear the Dhamma and gain faith.

If they hear the Dhamma but don't gain faith, then it's due to a lack of appropriate attention. Undeveloped discernment.

Conviction in other, untrue, teachings (all teachings that don't contain an eightfold path) is also a barrier to accepting the Dhamma. The Buddha especially criticised creator deity beliefs, deterministic beliefs and acausal beliefs. These kinds of evil doctrines are sadly prevalent in Europe. Fortunately foolish creator-deity worship at least is in swift decline.

Delighting in attachment, passion and clinging - too much dust in most people's eyes. Hedonism is generally frighteningly rife in the west, although what I read tells me the new generation are sobering up. If so there's hope.
“A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die... He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?"
MN 140
Intentionjohn
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Intentionjohn »

Many people around the world may feel the need to escape from global capitalism, which they believe creates conflicts for market profits. It is hoped that some recognize this perspective, as elites seek certainty for their investments and have, over recent years, influenced governments, which is seen as typical behavior for them.

Defining Buddhism can be challenging. The concept of reincarnation into future lives does not resonate with me, but the idea of rebirth in the next moment does, and what are considered past lives are merely memories within this lifetime. It's peculiar to me that many monks firmly believe in reincarnation and teach it as such, especially since Buddha was raised in a Hindu elite, and Hinduism is widely practiced in India.

Tibetan Buddhism, despite having some of the most esteemed teachers and numerous sects, seems overly complex to me, and the presence of family lineages is something I find less appealing.
santa100
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by santa100 »

Intentionjohn wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:15 pm Defining Buddhism can be challenging. The concept of reincarnation into future lives does not resonate with me, but the idea of rebirth in the next moment does, and what are considered past lives are merely memories within this lifetime. It's peculiar to me that many monks firmly believe in reincarnation and teach it as such, especially since Buddha was raised in a Hindu elite, and Hinduism is widely practiced in India.
While different people are entitled to their own opinion, there's no argument that the Buddha taught about rebirth in a literal sense. The explicit common stock phrase "...then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in ..." are there in many Suttas.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Dhammapardon »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:06 pm While different people are entitled to their own opinion, there's no argument that the Buddha taught about rebirth in a literal sense. The explicit common stock phrase "...then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in ..." are there in many Suttas.
A body can also break up into 5 aggregates or into satipatthana objects of body, feelings, mind, mind formations.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by santa100 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:42 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:06 pm While different people are entitled to their own opinion, there's no argument that the Buddha taught about rebirth in a literal sense. The explicit common stock phrase "...then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in ..." are there in many Suttas.
A body can also break up into 5 aggregates or into satipatthana objects of body, feelings, mind, mind formations.
But if that was the Buddha's real intent, He wouldn't have followed up with the "after death" phrase (ie. the person doesn't die by simply breaking up the body into its Five-Aggregate components). And even assuming that that premise is true, the only logical conclusion is that the moment-to-moment rebirth is at best an accompanying/supplemental interpretation to the traditional one, NOT the sole/exclusive interpretation.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Dhammapardon »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:04 pm
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:42 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:06 pm While different people are entitled to their own opinion, there's no argument that the Buddha taught about rebirth in a literal sense. The explicit common stock phrase "...then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in ..." are there in many Suttas.
A body can also break up into 5 aggregates or into satipatthana objects of body, feelings, mind, mind formations.
But if that was the Buddha's real intent, He wouldn't have followed up with the "after death" phrase (ie. the person doesn't die by simply breaking up the body into its Five-Aggregate components). And even assuming that that premise is true, the only logical conclusion is that the moment-to-moment rebirth is at best an accompanying/supplemental interpretation to the traditional one, NOT the sole/exclusive interpretation.
Depends on the death. Death of an experience is death of an experience whether the experience of indulging in a song concluding or the experience of the role taken on at work concluding or an experience of a whole human life concluding. The experience is through all aggregates joining together and when the experience ends, the aggregates don't have the same purpose of joining together in that way and so that configuration ends. Just different magnitudes. The beginning and ending of which are experienced all the same. It sucks when a good song ends. Why? Because the configuration of aggregates has to change. And change from something I was previously delighting in. I wanted more of it. Now I'm stuck with looking at my phone screen in silence, maybe realizing lunch is over. The aggregates get reoriented and that change is stressful. Especially if I'd rather be there than in the new configuration. It's just different magnitudes of aggregates forming and reorienting and ceasing and reforming.
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santa100
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by santa100 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:28 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:04 pm
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 9:42 pm
A body can also break up into 5 aggregates or into satipatthana objects of body, feelings, mind, mind formations.
But if that was the Buddha's real intent, He wouldn't have followed up with the "after death" phrase (ie. the person doesn't die by simply breaking up the body into its Five-Aggregate components). And even assuming that that premise is true, the only logical conclusion is that the moment-to-moment rebirth is at best an accompanying/supplemental interpretation to the traditional one, NOT the sole/exclusive interpretation.
Depends on the death. Death of an experience is death of an experience whether the experience of indulging in a song concluding or the experience of the role taken on at work concluding or an experience of a whole human life concluding. The experience is through all aggregates joining together and when the experience ends, the aggregates don't have the same purpose of joining together in that way and so that configuration ends. Just different magnitudes. The beginning and ending of which are experienced all the same. It sucks when a good song ends. Why? Because the configuration of aggregates has to change. And change from something I was previously delighting in. I wanted more of it. Now I'm stuck with looking at my phone screen in silence, maybe realizing lunch is over. The aggregates get reoriented and that change is stressful. Especially if I'd rather be there than in the new configuration. It's just different magnitudes of aggregates forming and reorienting and ceasing and reforming.
Again, there's absolutely no proof that such moment-to-moment interpretation is the sole/exclusive interpretation which totally replaces the traditional literal rebirth. One'd have to perform a lot of mental gymnastics to dance around explicit phrases like: "after death", and "he will be reborn into the company of the devas [or hell, or other realms]", which by the way, many instances where the disciples asked the Buddha about the future rebirth of some noble disciple who had just literally and physically passed away! Furthermore, from a logic perspective, the Occam's razor's rule makes it at best, like already said, a supplemental interpretation, not the sole/exclusive interpretation.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Dhammapardon »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:32 pm
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:28 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:04 pm
But if that was the Buddha's real intent, He wouldn't have followed up with the "after death" phrase (ie. the person doesn't die by simply breaking up the body into its Five-Aggregate components). And even assuming that that premise is true, the only logical conclusion is that the moment-to-moment rebirth is at best an accompanying/supplemental interpretation to the traditional one, NOT the sole/exclusive interpretation.
Depends on the death. Death of an experience is death of an experience whether the experience of indulging in a song concluding or the experience of the role taken on at work concluding or an experience of a whole human life concluding. The experience is through all aggregates joining together and when the experience ends, the aggregates don't have the same purpose of joining together in that way and so that configuration ends. Just different magnitudes. The beginning and ending of which are experienced all the same. It sucks when a good song ends. Why? Because the configuration of aggregates has to change. And change from something I was previously delighting in. I wanted more of it. Now I'm stuck with looking at my phone screen in silence, maybe realizing lunch is over. The aggregates get reoriented and that change is stressful. Especially if I'd rather be there than in the new configuration. It's just different magnitudes of aggregates forming and reorienting and ceasing and reforming.
Again, there's absolutely no proof that such moment-to-moment interpretation is the sole/exclusive interpretation which totally replaces the traditional literal rebirth. One'd have to perform a lot of mental gymnastics to dance around explicit phrases like: "after death", and "he will be reborn into the company of the devas [or hell, or other realms]", which by the way, many instances where the disciples asked the Buddha about the future rebirth of some noble disciple who had just literally and physically passed away! Furthermore, from a logic perspective, the Occam's razor's rule makes it at best, like already said, a supplemental interpretation, not the sole/exclusive interpretation.
I have no intention of claiming moment-to-moment interpretation as the sole/exclusive interpretation. Just that there are magnitudes to arising and passing away of things. That it's stressful, has to do with the aggregates being experienced as a whole experience attached instead of individual aggregates, the aggregates reorienting, and being more painful when the conglomeration of aggregates as an experience is clung to passionately. One magnitude being the end of a human experience of life, another being the end of experiencing a good song or meal, and many other kinds as well. To not be swept away by delight or disgust with the sound of the music or taste of the meal but remain in satipatthana is to avoid going through that experience attached; To avoid taking all 5 aggregates as a self. Just one small meal or song in the larger life. Lots of chances to practice.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.019.than.html wrote: When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

"Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves."
Are these instructions so that the monks may savor their life of having chewed up or swallowed a morsel of food? Savour the flavour? Or so that even in the moment it takes to do such things they are practicing mindfulness? And mindfulness of what? The morsel? The flavor? Satipatthana?
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santa100
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by santa100 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:59 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:32 pm
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:28 pm
Depends on the death. Death of an experience is death of an experience whether the experience of indulging in a song concluding or the experience of the role taken on at work concluding or an experience of a whole human life concluding. The experience is through all aggregates joining together and when the experience ends, the aggregates don't have the same purpose of joining together in that way and so that configuration ends. Just different magnitudes. The beginning and ending of which are experienced all the same. It sucks when a good song ends. Why? Because the configuration of aggregates has to change. And change from something I was previously delighting in. I wanted more of it. Now I'm stuck with looking at my phone screen in silence, maybe realizing lunch is over. The aggregates get reoriented and that change is stressful. Especially if I'd rather be there than in the new configuration. It's just different magnitudes of aggregates forming and reorienting and ceasing and reforming.
Again, there's absolutely no proof that such moment-to-moment interpretation is the sole/exclusive interpretation which totally replaces the traditional literal rebirth. One'd have to perform a lot of mental gymnastics to dance around explicit phrases like: "after death", and "he will be reborn into the company of the devas [or hell, or other realms]", which by the way, many instances where the disciples asked the Buddha about the future rebirth of some noble disciple who had just literally and physically passed away! Furthermore, from a logic perspective, the Occam's razor's rule makes it at best, like already said, a supplemental interpretation, not the sole/exclusive interpretation.
I have no intention of claiming moment-to-moment interpretation as the sole/exclusive interpretation. Just that there are magnitudes to arising and passing away of things. That it's stressful, has to do with the aggregates being experienced as a whole experience attached instead of individual aggregates, the aggregates reorienting, and being more painful when the conglomeration of aggregates as an experience is clung to passionately. One magnitude being the end of a human experience of life, another being the end of experiencing a good song or meal, and many other kinds as well. To not be swept away by delight or disgust with the sound of the music or taste of the meal but remain in satipatthana is to avoid going through that experience attached; To avoid taking all 5 aggregates as a self. Just one small meal or song in the larger life. Lots of chances to practice.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.019.than.html wrote: When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

"Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves."
Are these instructions so that the monks may savor their life of having chewed up or swallowed a morsel of food? Savour the flavour? Or so that even in the moment it takes to do such things they are practicing mindfulness? And mindfulness of what? The morsel? The flavor? Satipatthana?
If any, your provided AN 6.19 only confirms the literal physical death. It can be long or short (ie. 1 day&night, duration of a meal, duration to swallow/chewing...) but it's still a literal physical death nevertheless, unlike the kind of momentary death of "a feeling of listening to a good song" while one's physical body is still alive like your example above. Hence the Satipatthana of AN 6.19 really built upon literal physical death, whether long or short, as the foundation, thus only further solidify the traditional interpretation of the literal physical death of the body and its subsequent rebirth into various realms. Now, I have no intention of rejecting the moment-to-moment rebirth interpretation. If that helps a practitioner making progress with their Satipatthana, then great, please continue to do what one does. But it's just plain wrong to claim that the Buddha never taught literal rebirth.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Dhammapardon »

santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:23 pm But it's just plain wrong to claim that the Buddha never taught literal rebirth.
I agree. Though I'll have to take it on faith for the time being whereas I can practice satipatthana in each moment until that time.
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Dan74
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Dan74 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:38 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:23 pm But it's just plain wrong to claim that the Buddha never taught literal rebirth.
I agree. Though I'll have to take it on faith for the time being whereas I can practice satipatthana in each moment until that time.
I haven't come across Buddhist teachers who insisted that their students accept literal rebirth as a prerequisite to practice. Maybe some Tibetan teachers do, but in Vajrayana too, it's not so common I think. It may be important for building up motivation though.
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by pops »

Dan74 wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:09 am
Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:38 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:23 pm But it's just plain wrong to claim that the Buddha never taught literal rebirth.
I agree. Though I'll have to take it on faith for the time being whereas I can practice satipatthana in each moment until that time.
I haven't come across Buddhist teachers who insisted that their students accept literal rebirth as a prerequisite to practice. Maybe some Tibetan teachers do, but in Vajrayana too, it's not so common I think. It may be important for building up motivation though.
Not only that.

Right view is a necessary condition for developing right concentration.

Mendicants, I will teach you noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites. Listen and apply your mind well, I will speak.”

“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is what is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and also ‘with its prerequisites’.

In this context, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? When you understand wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view, that’s your right view.

And what is wrong view? ‘There’s no meaning in giving, sacrifice, or offerings. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There’s no afterlife. There’s no such thing as mother and father, or beings that are reborn spontaneously. And there’s no ascetic or brahmin who is rightly comported and rightly practiced, and who describes the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ This is wrong view.

And what is right view? Right view is twofold, I say. There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

And what is right view that is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments? ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are such things as mother and father, and beings that are reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are rightly comported and rightly practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ This is right view that is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments
. https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujat ... ript=latin
Intentionjohn
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Intentionjohn »

There is no God in life, why do people try to make believe that a God exists after life? Could it be their conditioning from youth? The Buddha teaches us to reflect and think, he teaches us about the causes of Suffering in this life and the end of suffering in this life. :candle:


One of my biggest hates is when someone says that a disabled person from birth must have been a bad person in a previous life, or Children and adults blown up and killed in Wars were bad people in previous lives. How totally unthoughtful are people who make such statements, they suggest that this is the Hell realm without realising it.
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Rambutan
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Re: European Buddhism

Post by Rambutan »

Suddh wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 5:22 am Most Europeans have not associated enough
with people of integrity.
:rofl:
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