Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Alex123
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Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all.

Can bhikkhus from different lineages (ex: Theravada, Dharmaguptaka, Mulasarvastivada) recite the Patimokkha rules together in one place at the same time on Uposatha?

Would they be able to perform saṅghakamma together?

Thanks.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:03 pm Hello all.

Can bhikkhus from different lineages (ex: Theravada, Dharmaguptaka, Mulasarvastivada) recite the Patimokkha rules together in one place at the same time on Uposatha?

Would they be able to perform saṅghakamma together?

Thanks.
They have different rules don’t they?
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BKh
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by BKh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:58 pm They have different rules don’t they?
I believe that the Patimokkha itself is nearly identical among different traditions. It's the Suttavibhanga (the explanation of the rules) that differs. If I recall correctly one of the differences is that the Non-Theravada traditions have extra sekhikas about behaviour around stupas.

As to the OP's question, it probably depends on the attitudes of the individual monks. It wouldn't surprise me if monastics did a shared patimokkha recitation for the sake of good will. For example Abhayagiri has a very close relationship with CTTB (Master Hua donated the original Abhayagiri property). If I'm not mistaken monks from CTTB have participated in (or at least been present for) ordinations at Abhayagiri, although I don't know the details of exactly how it was done. Don't make too much of it.

However there are some groups of monks (esp. within the Dhammayut Nikay) that won't even do patimokkha with monks from other Theravada traditions.
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Alex123
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:58 pm
Alex123 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:03 pm Hello all.

Can bhikkhus from different lineages (ex: Theravada, Dharmaguptaka, Mulasarvastivada) recite the Patimokkha rules together in one place at the same time on Uposatha?

Would they be able to perform saṅghakamma together?

Thanks.
They have different rules don’t they?

Yes they have different rules. This is why I don't think that it would work out very well. However, I might be wrong. I hope that I am wrong.
BKh wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:28 pm I believe that the Patimokkha itself is nearly identical among different traditions.
I hope so. If I remember correctly, Mahayana monks eat 3x per day. Theravada monks only 1x (or 2x per day) before noon. This might cause disagreement if correct. I hope I am mistaken here.
BKh
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by BKh »

The eating of three meals is not an actual Vinaya thing. Meaning that their patimokkha has basically the same food rules, they just don't keep them. And frankly most Theravada monks in the world eat things in the afternoon that are not proper too.
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Suddh
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by Suddh »

If by "in one place" you mean in the same territory then no, this would be clearly forbidden by the Theravāda Vinaya. Monks from separate affiliations may not sit in on the same pāṭimokkha recitation. All would receive offences and the transaction would be deemed invalid and against the Dhamma.

There's also the question of ordination validity - certain traditions might not even technically count as monks by Theravada standards. Even within Theravada there are some strands whose majority attitude to Vinaya is so lax as to leave others in doubt as to their status as monks. Thus they prefer to keep a separate recitation to keep their own lineage as pure as possible.

As for saṅghakammas - there is no offence to have monks from a separate affiliation in the territory for an ordination or kathina, for example, but they may not count towards the quorum of monks required for that transaction.

See the relevant section of the Buddhist Monastic Code for more detail: https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0051.html
“A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die... He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?"
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BhikkhuVarrapanyo
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by BhikkhuVarrapanyo »

There is a lot of confusion about what monks can and cannot do.

This relates primarily to being a leader of monks in a practical way.

Focus on Dana and Sila.

Don't worry about what monks from different traditions can and can't do.

Won't help your practice.

Good luck 😊🤙🏼🪭
Suddh
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Re: Can bhikkhus from different lineages hold uposatha ceremony together?

Post by Suddh »

He answers a question that should be given a categorical/analytical answer as one that should be put aside...
“A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die... He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?"
MN 140
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