n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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l_rivers
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n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by l_rivers »

In what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

See: in what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?



It is already:

a TOPIC held in mind in analysing Buddhist texts. See "how Theravada differs from Early Buddhism'

an APPROACH TO PRACTICE. See 'a swift pair of messengers'.

A CHANGE IN SOCIAL BEHAVIOR. See 'Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies',

But is this 'distinction in outlook REFLECTED IN SOCIAL INSTITUTION,

like a Sangha or Self Identified Group of thinkers, like the DADA movement or the Green Party and Movement?

I am maybe waiting for bus that will never come. :anjali:
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DNS
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by DNS »

l_rivers wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:03 pm It is already:
a TOPIC held in mind in analysing Buddhist texts. See "how Theravada differs from Early Buddhism'
an APPROACH TO PRACTICE. See 'a swift pair of messengers'.
A CHANGE IN SOCIAL BEHAVIOR. See 'Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies',
But is this 'distinction in outlook REFLECTED IN SOCIAL INSTITUTION,

like a Sangha or Self Identified Group of thinkers, like the DADA movement or the Green Party and Movement?
Yes, in the ways you noted, but not yet a social institution, as far as I know. There are individual monks and temples that probably take an EBT approach, but not a whole set of specific temples and monasteries, as far as I know. For example, one could attend the temple where Bhantes Sujato and Brahmali teach and that would be EBT, but not sure what others would count as EBT Buddhism. There are likely others; it would be nice to have a list of them.

One could always take an EBT approach to study and practice and still attend a Theravada temple or even a Chan or Zen temple. One who is EBT might not want to go to where specific non-EBT practices are done, but that shouldn't be an issue if one sticks with Theravada, Chan, Zen where the focus is on suttas/sutras and sitting and walking meditation.
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l_rivers
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by l_rivers »

Thanks for the reply. Your "take" is the answer I expected.
:anjali:
thomaslaw
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by thomaslaw »

Yes, DNS has responded to the question very well indeed. I really like the expression: EBT Buddhism (Buddhism of Early Buddhist Texts). :namaste:
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

There are quite a few EBT monks in the western forest sangha, and some in Sri Lanka. But it's just their personal views, not a monastery-wide policy.
It's 95% westerners.
Pulsar
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Pulsar »

Just listened to the first half. Presented in a very
convincing manner. If you listen to Sujato's interpretation, looks like the
answer is not so simple.
Theravadins and Buddhaghosa present Pali as the "go to" language. But this is not something Buddha claimed, according to V. Sujato.
At one point V. Sujato says Early Buddhism emphasized practice, which I understand to be meditation.
whereas Theravada emphasizes devotion.
Just two points that leapt out on first listen. Any thoughts on how Theravada differs from Early Buddhism, based on the video?
With Love :candle:
PS I was aware of this video before, but never paid attention to it until now. Thanks for posting dear OP.
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by DNS »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:01 pm There are quite a few EBT monks in the western forest sangha, and some in Sri Lanka. But it's just their personal views, not a monastery-wide policy.
It's 95% westerners.
That's what I thought, so glad to see you can confirm this.

Ven. S. Dhammika could also be called an EBT monk. He stopped calling himself a Theravadin monk many years ago and simply goes by "Buddhist monk." His teachings and writings are from the (Pali) suttas and vinaya. He had a temple/monastery in Singapore for many years, but now lives in Australia on his own.
thomaslaw
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by thomaslaw »

EBT Buddhism (Buddhism of EBTs) or an EBT follower/monk is about early Buddhism based on EBTs.

Earliest use of the English phrase “early Buddhism” to refer to both Pali and Chinese early Buddhist texts is:

Choong Mun-keat. The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism (1995; second revised edition, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1999).

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ea ... sm/33436/3

:buddha1: :candle:
Intentionjohn
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Intentionjohn »

The man in the video is a click bait merchant who makes money from people watching his videos! :toilet:
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Pulsar »

The man in the video explains somethings concisely. I find this helpful.
Listen to how he explains "Buddha did not reject self absolutely" titled "Did the Buddha teach No self?"
Is that what you call click bait? If so, so be it, I enjoy listening to some of his talks.
In what OP posted, Doug is merely going over a publication of V. Sujato i.e. Differences between Theravada and Early Buddhism.
Dear Intentionjohn: Would you call V. Sujato a click and bait merchant for listing the differences between the two traditions?
Below is the video that explains "No Self"

He may not be perfect? I do not think he is enlightened, but he has admitted as much in another video.
Imperfection does not make a person click bait merchant. He appears to do a good job in creating an awareness of Buddha's teaching among the public. So what if he asked for donations?
Brahma vihara is helpful in moments like this. Perhaps he has a video on that too?
With Love :candle:
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Zom »

Buddha did not reject self absolutely
Buddha did reject it absolutely, but not in direct words like "hey, there is no self". And he explained why: this leads ordinary people to confusion (while at the same time this phrase expressed in this way does not lead to confusion those with right views).
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l_rivers
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by l_rivers »

This quote from Wiki explains the reasoning succintly.

"It is because of the impermanence of the five aggregates (*skandha) that Buddhism teaches there can be no eternal self or soul (see ANĀTMAN). "

:anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Ceisiwr »

l_rivers wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:36 am This quote from Wiki explains the reasoning succintly.

"It is because of the impermanence of the five aggregates (*skandha) that Buddhism teaches there can be no eternal self or soul (see ANĀTMAN). "

:anjali:
Indeed. What we take to be a substantial self is actually a collection of relative, dependent dhammas. Void of being, void of a soul. Notice the similar language between Theravāda and the Prajñāpāramitā here.

"No store of broken states, no future stock;
Those born balance like seeds on needle points.
Breakup of states is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky"


Niddesa
In other words, when the meditator watches dhammas as dhammas in the manner described in the Satipat:t:hana Sutta , what the commentaries are suggesting is that what he is watching is the arising and disappearance of nothing but evanescent and insubstantial non-entities that have no real essence or life of their own.

This ties in with the way Buddhaghosa later alludes to a number of images and similes from the Nikayas in order to illustrate the manner in which dhammas that are not lasting or solid but rather things that vanish almost as soon as they appear – like dew drops at sunrise, like a bubble on water, like a line drawn on water, like a mustard-seed placed on the point of an awl, like a flash of lightning; things that lack substance and always elude one’s grasp – like a mirage, a conjuring trick, a dream, the circle formed by a whirling fire brand, a fairy city, foam, or the trunk of a banana tree.36

“He who sees dhamma sees dhammas: dhamma in early Buddhism” by Rupert Gethin

"Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream.
So is all conditioned existence to be seen."

Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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Ceisiwr
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 8:13 pm
The man in the video explains somethings concisely. I find this helpful.
Listen to how he explains "Buddha did not reject self absolutely" titled "Did the Buddha teach No self?"
He did teach no-self. Awakening is awakening to no-self. To the insubstantial nature of all things.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
thomaslaw
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Re: n what way does a 'Buddhism of the Early Buddhist Texts' exist yet?

Post by thomaslaw »

A self/soul exists, this is one extreme. A self/soul does not exist, this is the other extreme. One does not insist on that existence (eternalism) or non-existence (nihilism) of self is my self. Then, when dukkha arises, it arises by causal condition (nidāna); when dukkha ceases, it ceases by causal condition.

Cf. SN 12.15 and SA 301.
Last edited by thomaslaw on Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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