paññā-the wrong path?

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sphairos
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by sphairos »

Here is another curveball for you, Bundokji:

the very Buddhism, the Middle Way is feminine: majjhimā paṭipadā.

Perhaps, then, it is not a suitable way for you?

Moreover, the very words "liberation" (vimutti) and "enlightenment" (bodhi) are feminine as well...

The Buddha is a buddha only because he reached Bodhi.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:33 am It's definitely not.

This Austronesian word is too far removed in chronology and geography and human culture from the immediate linguistic context of Middle Indic Prākrits.

It means "the bud" or "the seed," and apparently figures in diminuative nicknames for female friends in Hawaiian.

If you were to slide that Indic "prefixed a- of negation" out of its natural home in Indo-European-Land and apply it jarringly to this random Hawaiian word, what would that even mean? "Not your female friend Kaliko?" "Not the bud/seed?" It produces gibberish that does not indicate the desired meaning of "akāliko" in Pāli Prākrit. If it's nonsensical gibberish like "not the seed," that's a good indication that you've left behind the tilled fertile garden of contemplation and are entering the unkempt wilds of dream-like fantasia-extravaganza-land.
Maybe the Hawaiian name made it sound exotic?

https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate? ... ikA&dir=se

Also to bring it closer to home:

https://suttacentral.net/define/k%C4%81lika?lang=en

I will return to your previous post when i have more time.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:57 am Here is another curveball for you, Bundokji:

the very Buddhism, the Middle Way is feminine: majjhimā paṭipadā.

Perhaps, then, it is not a suitable way for you?

Moreover, the very words "liberation" (vimutti) and "enlightenment" (bodhi) are feminine as well...

The Buddha is a buddha only because he reached Bodhi.
The Middle way is a spin - wrong path. Dependent origination, which is also described as the Middle, is rooted in avijja.

When the Buddha accepted Bhikkuni ordination, he expected his dhamma to last for five hundred years, and after five hunderd years, Mahayana emerged when the Bodhisattva became the ideal, samsara became equated with nibbana, and liberating the mother became one of the indispensable duties of the Buddha (whereas in Theravada, his mother "Maya" passed away shortly after giving birth to him). The feminine trend continued in Vajrayana, where sex and sorcery became part of the practice. Who knows, maybe Kali yuga has something to do with kalika. :popcorn:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by sphairos »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:25 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:57 am Here is another curveball for you, Bundokji:

the very Buddhism, the Middle Way is feminine: majjhimā paṭipadā.

Perhaps, then, it is not a suitable way for you?

Moreover, the very words "liberation" (vimutti) and "enlightenment" (bodhi) are feminine as well...

The Buddha is a buddha only because he reached Bodhi.
The Middle way is a spin - wrong path. Dependent origination, which is also described as the Middle, is rooted in avijja.

When the Buddha accepted Bhikkuni ordination, he expected his dhamma to last for five hundred years, and after five hunderd years, Mahayana emerged when the Bodhisattva became the ideal, samsara became equated with nibbana, and liberating the mother became one of the indispensable duties of the Buddha (whereas in Theravada, his mother "Maya" passed away shortly after giving birth to him). The feminine trend continued in Vajrayana, where sex and sorcery became part of the practice. Who knows, maybe Kali yuga has something to do with kalika. :popcorn:
The Buddha declared Buddhism to be The Middle Way (majjhimā paṭipadā) in his First Teaching:
Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One understood the middle way of practice, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment.

Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati.

And what is that middle way of practice?

Katamā ca sā, bhikkhave, majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati?

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin
The Noble Eightfold Path is the Middle Way.
Last edited by sphairos on Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:43 pm The Buddha declared Buddhism to be The Middle Way (majjhimā paṭipadā) in his First Teaching:
Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One understood the middle way of practice, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment.

Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati.

And what is that middle way of practice?

Katamā ca sā, bhikkhave, majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati?

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... ript=latin
The Noble Eightfold Path is the Middle Way.
Yes, which is a spin. Refer to the name of the sutta in question.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:17 pm Maybe the Hawaiian name made it sound exotic?

https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate? ... ikA&dir=se
I'm not one to pretend like it's not possible that I'm wrong when I state things quite confidently, but here I think it's not a loanword, but rather a coincidence.

Austronesian languages were part of the historical Indosphere, just look at Srivijaya or the Laguna Copperplate. It opens with "svāsti."

But the "-ka/-kā" on the end of the Sanskritic/Prākritic "kalikā" is likely a diminuative suffix that communicates the size and age of the "bud/seed" in question. That's just my amateur opinion on the matter of the derivation that underlies the formation of the physical characteristics of the word "kalikā."

What isn't just my mere amateur opinion is the derivation that underlies the Hawaiian "kalika."

It's "ka," the definite article, followed by "lika" or "seed."

Ka + lika
"the seed"

The Pāli term is not formed this way, and "ka" is not a definite article in Pāli Prākrit, unless I'm to be severely corrected by someone.

Hawaiian is famous for its extremely thin phonetic inventory. There are only eight consonant sounds in Hawaiian, and only so many kinds of vowel glides exist between their five vowels. There is no "r" sound in Hawaiian of any sort, and there is no "s" or "s-like sound" either. Famously, the English phrase "Merry Christmas" comes out as "Meli Kelikimaku" under the constraints of trying to match the English up with elements of the incredibly tight phonetic inventory of possible sounds that Hawaiian has.

It's gonna have words that sound identical to the simplest words, phonetically-speaking, in Prākrit/Sanskrit. "Sati" is probably a word in some Hawaiian-adjacent Austronesian language. I don't know this to be true, but the word is simple enough to pop up phonetically in almost any language. It's not like "pfghurp" or some other chaotic cluster of a word that isn't possible as a natural word in, say, English, and would only be found in its source language.

Just because things sound alike, even if two words have utterly identical phonetic properties, it doesn't follow that there is a relation of any meaningful degree between them.

American gangsta's give testimony of the Dharma everywhere, when they utter in reverence "Fo' sho'." It is functionally identical to some accents of Mandarin when they pronounce the word "buddhavacana" (佛說, fó shōu). It illustrates how the ever-present natural principles that the Buddhas awaken to find themselves instilled into and imprinted upon even the unawakened hearts of the worldlings.

:sage:

Of course, they're really saying "For sure" with a heavy AAV accent.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:05 pm I'm not one to pretend like it's not possible that I'm wrong when I state things quite confidently, but here I think it's not a loanword, but rather a coincidence.

Austronesian languages were part of the historical Indosphere, just look at Srivijaya or the Laguna Copperplate. It opens with "svāsti."

But the "-ka/-kā" on the end of the Sanskritic/Prākritic "kalikā" is likely a diminuative suffix that communicates the size and age of the "bud/seed" in question. That's just my amateur opinion on the matter of the derivation that underlies the formation of the physical characteristics of the word "kalikā."

What isn't just my mere amateur opinion is the derivation that underlies the Hawaiian "kalika."

It's "ka," the definite article, followed by "lika" or "seed."

Ka + lika
"the seed"

The Pāli term is not formed this way, and "ka" is not a definite article in Pāli Prākrit, unless I'm to be severely corrected by someone.

Hawaiian is famous for its extremely thin phonetic inventory. There are only eight consonant sounds in Hawaiian, and only so many kinds of vowel glides exist between their five vowels. There is no "r" sound in Hawaiian of any sort, and there is no "s" or "s-like sound" either. Famously, the English phrase "Merry Christmas" comes out as "Meli Kelikimaku" under the constraints of trying to match the English up with elements of the incredibly tight phonetic inventory of possible sounds that Hawaiian has.

It's gonna have words that sound identical to the simplest words, phonetically-speaking, in Prākrit/Sanskrit. "Sati" is probably a word in some Hawaiian-adjacent Austronesian language. I don't know this to be true, but the word is simple enough to pop up phonetically in almost any language. It's not like "pfghurp" or some other chaotic cluster of a word that isn't possible as a natural word in, say, English, and would only be found in its source language.

Just because things sound alike, even if two words have utterly identical phonetic properties, it doesn't follow that there is a relation of any meaningful degree between them.

American gangsta's give testimony of the Dharma everywhere, when they utter in reverence "Fo' sho'." It is functionally identical to some accents of Mandarin when they pronounce the word "buddhavacana" (佛說, fó shōu). It illustrates how the ever-present natural principles that the Buddhas awaken to find themselves instilled into and imprinted upon even the unawakened hearts of the worldlings.

:sage:

Of course, they're really saying "For sure" with a heavy AAV accent.
If you think it is a coincidence, then a different approach would be using a synonym to kalika in Sanskrit, which would still be applicable to pali. Take Bija as an example, which means "the seed" in both pali and sanskrit, as in:
Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṁ khettaṁ, viññāṇaṁ bījaṁ, taṇhā sneho


The seed in this context does not sound very praiseworthy, while kamma would still be applicable to ariyas.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:05 pm
But the "-ka/-kā" on the end of the Sanskritic/Prākritic "kalikā" is likely a diminuative suffix that communicates the size and age of the "bud/seed" in question. That's just my amateur opinion on the matter of the derivation that underlies the formation of the physical characteristics of the word "kalikā."

What isn't just my mere amateur opinion is the derivation that underlies the Hawaiian "kalika."

It's "ka," the definite article, followed by "lika" or "seed."

Ka + lika
"the seed"

The Pāli term is not formed this way, and "ka" is not a definite article in Pāli Prākrit, unless I'm to be severely corrected by someone.
In the relevant example (the sixth in the linked Sanskrit dictionary table) the "ka" is I think just an adjectivalising suffix. It would be in the Pali anyway. Kālika is from kāla (time) and means "time-ish"; of, or related to, time; temporal.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:51 pm If you think it is a coincidence, then a different approach would be using a synonym to kalika in Sanskrit, which would still be applicable to pali.
A different approach to what though? Forcing a relationship that just isn't there between kalikā in the sense of "a seed" and kalika in the sense that's to-do with time?

What is the methodology or ideology informing your decision/suggestion that a "different approach" either is possible or would be preferable here; as well as the suggestion that this "different approach" might yield some sort of determination that the two words sounding alike isn't a coincidence? I'm not quite following you here.
Bundokji wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:51 pm Take Bija as an example, which means "the seed" in both pali and sanskrit, as in:
Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṁ khettaṁ, viññāṇaṁ bījaṁ, taṇhā sneho


The seed in this context does not sound very praiseworthy, while kamma would still be applicable to ariyas.
How were you lining up your thoughts when you wrote the above?

To me, it looks like this is the trajectory of what you've written: 1) try a different approach that avoids the conclusion of "the similitude between the words is coincidental," 2) kalikā in Sanskrit means "a seed" or apparently "something that is to blossom," kalika in Hawaiian means "the seed;" and this is further like the term bīja in Pāli Canon, 3) "vijñāna" when it is called "the seed"/bīja doesn't sound like something that would be praised by the Āryans, and 4) (and this is definitely where I'm having the most difficulty in trying to figure out what the sense could be behind my potential confusion) because "bīja" doesnt sound like a praiseworthy thing, it follows that, if the former proposition holds, Āryas would then be rightly said to be subjected to karma and vipāka.

What were you trying to convey in all that? Where have I strayed in trying to figure out what you're actually saying?
All utterances & all sounds that proceed forth
from the sattvadhātu or the dharmadhātu,
from the land, waters, skies, woods, or hills
are the secret dhāraṇīs of
आँः वाँः & भ्रूँ.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:10 pm What were you trying to convey in all that? Where have I strayed in trying to figure out what you're actually saying?
I will try to be clearer. The original premise of this whole thread is investigating the possibility of how paññā, as a feminine principle, cannot be the forerunner of a path of liberation where major attainments, when personified as Sakka, Mara or SammasamBuddha have to be a purisa - considering that purisa is also another word for a "person". In your first reply to this thread, you made a distinction between grammatical gender and biological gender, then to go on to explain how even genitalia can take a different grammatical gender. All of this is against vivid imagery in the teachings that portray a purisa as a womanizer, be it the Bodhisatta enjoying all kinds of sensuality, or sakka having nymphs all around him, or even Mara who is thought of as utilizing his daughters to keep practitioners stuck in Samsara - sending them occasionally as bribes to dissuade.

As the discussion folded, the majority of discussants have been trying to argue against grammatical gender as a useful sign to conclude anything. Amongst other things, how grammar became gendered to begin with have been discussed, in which i argued that taking words as possible compounds can equally provide a useful hint as to how language came to adhere to household rules, where family is the central unit. When i shared the link with Sam Vara about Kaliko, linguistic accuracy was not the main point that i was trying to make, but only to present it as compound and to show the relationship to "time" when Sankhara can be translated as "compounded things". You then rejected the relevance of Kaliko in the link by paying attention to chronology, geography and context - for me to bring it closer to what you emphasize as "Middle Indic Prākrits" by demonstrating that it has a similar meaning in Sanskrit, for you to dismiss it as "coincidence".

I thought the best way to refocus attention on what matters is to use the "coincidence" of a "bud" or "seed", to one of the five niyamas where kammaniyama and bijaniyama intersect - which is equally relevant to your earlier point about the relationship between grammatical gender and biological gender. If we are going to use "time" or "kaliko" skillfully according to the teachings, bija as a determinant of biological sex can be said to be mostly irrelevant until we get closer to the last life of Bodhisatta, where being a purisa seems advantageous if not necessary. As such, it is neither geography nor chronology in the way you presented earlier that are of any significance in the context of a long journey towards awakening. In that context, the use of suññatā is not meant to dismiss the relevance of purisa to the spiritual life, but to dismiss the relevance of anything that has to do with feminine principles, considering the interdependence between the masculine and the feminine in household rules - which came to hijack language, grammar and is adhered to by scholars.
While I won't give an exhaustive critique on the various ways you've been riffing on the possible connections that can be drawn between grammatical gender and truths about the Buddhadharma, I will say that, if your poetical/aesthetical philosophizing leads you to stances like "Wisdom is the wrong path," then you aren't really using any fruitful observations you might glean from viewing things this way in a way that either expresses or laudes or even reflects the Dharma.
I try to pay attention to how language has been used either literally or poetically to draw conclusions and to scrutinize them. Using the feminine paññā as a forerunner is inline with the notion of "gradual path" and how it related to kalika. In the suttas, it was only Ven. Ananda who defended the notion of a gradual path having an "end" when he was a sotapanna, and coincidentally, he was a proponent of bhikkhuni ordination.

Modern teachers seem to use similar techniques, such as Ajahn Chah who advised his disciples to keep on asking "why i am here" because this makes them wise. In a gradual path, the feminine can be a stepping stone at best, and another example would be Jung's anima/animus integration before realizing the "self". We can at least agree that justifications is an art of its own where we can imagine as many intermediary stages as possible, but the last step in any path seems more important and conclusive than the ones preceding it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by asksky »

off-topic: person/persona is literally purusa + na :thinking:
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Sam Vara »

asksky wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:04 am off-topic: person/persona is literally purusa + na :thinking:
Yes, "person" is cognate with purusa/purisa/posa, but the "na" part was a late (19th Century?) addition and has nothing to do with the negative particle in Pali.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:00 am The original premise of this whole thread is investigating the possibility of how paññā, as a feminine principle, cannot be the forerunner of a path of liberation where major attainments, when personified as Sakka, Mara or SammasamBuddha have to be a purisa - considering that purisa is also another word for a "person".
Ok. That's a bit clearer now. You do know, though, that "wisdom" isn't actually feminine, right?

The second question that comes to mind is: "Why?"

Why is the word "paññā," a word devoid of any and all gender on terms of what it signifies, suddenly in tension with the fact that it is said that only men can become Śakra, Māra, a Tathāgata, etc., in the Pāli Canon? Why?

"Paññā" isn't actually a lady. She's not even a person. She's not even a sattva. "She's" not the one becoming enlightened or becoming Indra or whatever else. So there's no conflict or tension between the fact that the word "paññā" is inflected on the basis of grammatical gender and that certain heavenly/divine stations are thought to be beyond women's capacities by some.
All utterances & all sounds that proceed forth
from the sattvadhātu or the dharmadhātu,
from the land, waters, skies, woods, or hills
are the secret dhāraṇīs of
आँः वाँः & भ्रूँ.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:40 am Ok. That's a bit clearer now. You do know, though, that "wisdom" isn't actually feminine, right?
I do not.
The second question that comes to mind is: "Why?"

Why is the word "paññā," a word devoid of any and all gender on terms of what it signifies, suddenly in tension with the fact that it is said that only men can become Śakra, Māra, a Tathāgata, etc., in the Pāli Canon? Why?

"Paññā" isn't actually a lady. She's not even a person. She's not even a sattva. "She's" not the one becoming enlightened or becoming Indra or whatever else. So there's no conflict or tension between the fact that the word "paññā" is inflected on the basis of grammatical gender and that certain heavenly/divine stations are thought to be beyond women's capacities by some.
The question "why" is better answered by the Brahamnists/Abrahamics, especially amongst those who take their religion seriously. In that context, she is hard to get, and she covers up her esoteric beauty and does not reveal it except to the pious enough, who show enough dedication.

The above can be contrasted with the collectivists woke version which lines with promiscuity: we were so wrong and superstitious when we worshiped the patriarch in the sky, but that to those who loved sophia enough and transformed our thinking and enlightened us. It is not only that her secrets have been revealed to the naked eye and through science, but she empowered us enough with insights that are sharp enough to split an atom and destroy ourselves in the process.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: paññā-the wrong path?

Post by confusedlayman »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 7:35 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 9:28 am
Bundokji wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 2:30 am Venerables & Friends,

Paññā, which is translated as wisdom, is a feminine quality not only in pali, but in other languages as well. The N8FP begins with paññā-kkhandha, which is training in paññā, but described by scholars as masculine. My questions are:

1- How do scholars justify designating paññā as feminine and paññā-kkhandha as masculine? is the feminine paññā, when aggregated as paññā-kkhandha becomes masculine?

2- How can a feminine principle be the forerunner of the N8FP? would that make the four stages of awakening feminine qualities by virtue - considering that they follow the sammasambuddha who has to be purisa?

Thank you :anjali:
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