Mindfulness of body and jhanas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:14 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:42 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:25 pm The body part meditation leads to all four jhanas. Once first jhana is achieved then the 'theme' is dropped to move to second. The second jhana isn't reliant on the thought and examination of the first. The second jhana is gained through actually seeing the drawbacks of thinking.

The VM doesn't really understand this.
Thinking, as in normal thoughts, has to be done away with before the 1st Jhana.
😮‍💨

No one said 'normal' thoughts, that's just being silly.

Wholesome thoughts of renunciation, non ill will and non harm... but you're just derailing the thread with your commentary nonsense.
Those are closer to intentions than discursive thought.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by BrokenBones »

Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.
*approaching the first Jhana.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
The 4th Jhana has no thoughts. Let’s mock that too.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

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frank k
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by frank k »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
proof that vitakka are verbal thoughts, mental talk
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jst/index.html#2

in second jhana and up, the verbal part drops out, but perceptions, understanding (lucid-discerning), intentions (cetana) remain.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do metta beyond first jhāna.
So I don't know what you mean by 'theme' drops out after first jhāna.
Example, first jhāna, I would have verbal thought of "may mike be happy",
second jhāna, I stop mentally talking but I still maintain perceptions of 'may mike be happy".
You don't need to have linguistic labels to have full understanding of what something is.
Just like you know fire is hot and you shouldn't touch it, without any verbal mental talk.
If you touch fire with your hand in second jhana, you'll pull your hand away instantly, no time fir verbal thought.
If you add mental commentary, "ouch! that hurt", then you've dropped down to first jhāna with vitakka.
If someone throws a fast ball at you ,you know how to duck or hit it with a bat. You don't have time for verbal thoughts to form.
Elite professional athletes use a-vitakka a-vicāra samādhi all the time. There's no time for verbal thought in elite sports at highest level, you have to perceive (sañña), understand (sampajāno), and react.

I assume what you mean by 'inclinations' is cetana. It doesn't drop out after first jhana.
Again, you wouldn't be able to do metta for example after first jhana if cetana dropped out.
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frank k
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by frank k »

People get lots of strange ideas about vitakka because they lack real meditation experience.
For example, someone in a formless samadhi, body awareness has disappeared, can't hear sounds, feel mosquito bites, etc.
They can vitakka all they want without exiting the formless samadhi.
Guess what? You can even cuss in formless samadhi and it doesn't drop you down from formless back into form, or
drop you into first jhana, or out of jhana completely.
How do you think people with psychic powers can read people's minds? They're in imperturbable fourth jhana samadhi, and they must be able to decode the vitakka of the person whose mind they're reading to understand it.
It doesn't drop their samadhi from 4th jhana imperturbable into 'no jhana' because the vitakka of the person they were reading had akusala dhamma.

The standard four jhana formula is meant to be a guide to show how general progression works, and what coarser factors are likely to be preventing people from deepening their samadhi.

Vitakka has huge continuum. Just like someone can be talking in a normal voice, yelling, or whispering, or not emitting any audible sound, but still shaping their tongue and forming all the linguistic words without pushing any air out.
It's about energetic expenditure.

If you charge up your jhana battery enough, you get some real experience and knowledge about what kind of verbal and mental activities really
affect the quality of your jhana and samadhi.
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:12 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.
*approaching the first Jhana.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
The 4th Jhana has no thoughts. Let’s mock that too.

*deeper 😃

I'm only mocking the ability of people to deny what is evident and who go on to create a whole new teaching along with unsubtle grammatical gymnastics in order to redefine the Buddha's teachings simply in order to align with later tainted teachings.

I often wonder if people who mock the Buddha's teaching that thinking and examining are in the first jhana have ever actually tried developing such a practice to any great extent. It might actually surprise them.
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by Sam Vara »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:12 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.
*approaching the first Jhana.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
The 4th Jhana has no thoughts. Let’s mock that too.

*deeper 😃

I'm only mocking the ability of people to deny what is evident and who go on to create a whole new teaching along with unsubtle grammatical gymnastics in order to redefine the Buddha's teachings simply in order to align with later tainted teachings.

I often wonder if people who mock the Buddha's teaching that thinking and examining are in the first jhana have ever actually tried developing such a practice to any great extent. It might actually surprise them.
For me, it was the other way around. It was only when I was taught a meditative method that abandoned the thinking and examining, but which made sense of the presence of vitakka and vicara, that a step-change occurred.

But that might have been an error on my part. Understanding alien concepts and then matching them to personal experience can be a doubly-fraught process....
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by emptyset »

frank k wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
proof that vitakka are verbal thoughts, mental talk
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jst/index.html#2

in second jhana and up, the verbal part drops out, but perceptions, understanding (lucid-discerning), intentions (cetana) remain.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do metta beyond first jhāna.
So I don't know what you mean by 'theme' drops out after first jhāna.
Example, first jhāna, I would have verbal thought of "may mike be happy",
second jhāna, I stop mentally talking but I still maintain perceptions of 'may mike be happy".
You don't need to have linguistic labels to have full understanding of what something is.
Just like you know fire is hot and you shouldn't touch it, without any verbal mental talk.
If you touch fire with your hand in second jhana, you'll pull your hand away instantly, no time fir verbal thought.
If you add mental commentary, "ouch! that hurt", then you've dropped down to first jhāna with vitakka.
If someone throws a fast ball at you ,you know how to duck or hit it with a bat. You don't have time for verbal thoughts to form.
Elite professional athletes use a-vitakka a-vicāra samādhi all the time. There's no time for verbal thought in elite sports at highest level, you have to perceive (sañña), understand (sampajāno), and react.

I assume what you mean by 'inclinations' is cetana. It doesn't drop out after first jhana.
Again, you wouldn't be able to do metta for example after first jhana if cetana dropped out.
:goodpost:
"Whoever sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
proof that vitakka are verbal thoughts, mental talk
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jst/index.html#2

in second jhana and up, the verbal part drops out, but perceptions, understanding (lucid-discerning), intentions (cetana) remain.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do metta beyond first jhāna.
So I don't know what you mean by 'theme' drops out after first jhāna.
Example, first jhāna, I would have verbal thought of "may mike be happy",
second jhāna, I stop mentally talking but I still maintain perceptions of 'may mike be happy".
You don't need to have linguistic labels to have full understanding of what something is.
Just like you know fire is hot and you shouldn't touch it, without any verbal mental talk.
If you touch fire with your hand in second jhana, you'll pull your hand away instantly, no time fir verbal thought.
If you add mental commentary, "ouch! that hurt", then you've dropped down to first jhāna with vitakka.
If someone throws a fast ball at you ,you know how to duck or hit it with a bat. You don't have time for verbal thoughts to form.
Elite professional athletes use a-vitakka a-vicāra samādhi all the time. There's no time for verbal thought in elite sports at highest level, you have to perceive (sañña), understand (sampajāno), and react.

I assume what you mean by 'inclinations' is cetana. It doesn't drop out after first jhana.
Again, you wouldn't be able to do metta for example after first jhana if cetana dropped out.
V&V are intentions.
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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confusedlayman
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Re: Mindfulness of body and jhanas

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:43 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:36 am Maybe as they get finer they become more like inclinations but by that time you're just getting deeper into first jhana.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that as a being with a conscious and thinking mind that they should use this amazing capacity to the full.

🙄 I'll just place attention on a tickle at my nose and get rid of those pesky thoughts... that's the wisdom of Buddha's jhana? 🤣
proof that vitakka are verbal thoughts, mental talk
https://lucid24.org/tped/j/jst/index.html#2

in second jhana and up, the verbal part drops out, but perceptions, understanding (lucid-discerning), intentions (cetana) remain.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to do metta beyond first jhāna.
So I don't know what you mean by 'theme' drops out after first jhāna.
Example, first jhāna, I would have verbal thought of "may mike be happy",
second jhāna, I stop mentally talking but I still maintain perceptions of 'may mike be happy".
You don't need to have linguistic labels to have full understanding of what something is.
Just like you know fire is hot and you shouldn't touch it, without any verbal mental talk.
If you touch fire with your hand in second jhana, you'll pull your hand away instantly, no time fir verbal thought.
If you add mental commentary, "ouch! that hurt", then you've dropped down to first jhāna with vitakka.
If someone throws a fast ball at you ,you know how to duck or hit it with a bat. You don't have time for verbal thoughts to form.
Elite professional athletes use a-vitakka a-vicāra samādhi all the time. There's no time for verbal thought in elite sports at highest level, you have to perceive (sañña), understand (sampajāno), and react.

I assume what you mean by 'inclinations' is cetana. It doesn't drop out after first jhana.
Again, you wouldn't be able to do metta for example after first jhana if cetana dropped out.
V&V are intentions.
V and v are mind voice
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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