Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Suddh
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Suddh »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 8:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 5:01 pm The people who claim Jhana has absolutely no connection to physical pleasure (sukha) at all are those from the Ajahn Brahm tradition. As far as we know, this is a very modern phenomenon.
I'm not sure if "absolutely no connection to physical pleasure", whether one can hear in jhana, etc are the key distinctions. The key distinction, to me, is between an absorbed jhana interpretation (in which case it is necessary to emerge before insight work) and an unabsorbed jhana interpretation where insight happens within jhana. The Visuddhimagga is certainly on the side of the former. The latter interpretation is a very modern phenomenon, as far as I know.

:heart:
Mike
Ven. Sāriputta does strike me as a phenomenon, but not so much as modern:
Whatever qualities there are in the first jhāna—directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention—he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they became established, known to him they subsided. He discerned, ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’ He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with unrestricted awareness. He discerned that ‘There is a further escape,’ and pursuing it, he confirmed that ‘There is.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN111.html
The only attainments that he analyses after emerging from them are NPNNP and CoPaF. All the others he examines while in the attainment.
“A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die... He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?"
MN 140
Suddh
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Suddh »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 9:17 pm
SecretSage wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 3:46 pmThe Sammasambuddha had rebuked arahants on many occasions creating dukkata rules.

Then the Sammasambuddha Gautama also even criticized other Sammasambuddhas teachings.
I think you're operating here under the influence of a misconception. In all Buddhisms, in all early sects, in Theravāda, in Mahāyāna even, there is a strict distinction between an Arhat and a Samyaksaṃbuddha/Sammāsambuddha. One Supreme Buddha never contradicts another, unless you have a pertinent example to give. Arhats are not Supreme Buddhas/Samyaksaṃbuddhas/Sammāsambuddhas.
He might be referring to the fact that, as is recorded in the Mahāvibhaṅga of the Vinaya, our Buddha highlighted previous Buddhas' lack of propensity to teach Dhamma as the cause for their dispensations disappearing relatively quickly.
“A sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die... He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?"
MN 140
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 5:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 8:56 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 8:21 pm
I'm not sure if "absolutely no connection to physical pleasure", whether one can hear in jhana, etc are the key distinctions. The key distinction, to me, is between an absorbed jhana interpretation (in which case it is necessary to emerge before insight work) and an unabsorbed jhana interpretation where insight happens within jhana. The Visuddhimagga is certainly on the side of the former. The latter interpretation is a very modern phenomenon, as far as I know.

:heart:
Mike
According to the Abhidhamma, there is insight in Jhana.
That's interesting. Can you give some exact references? As far as I recall the Visuddhimagga talks about insight after exiting and reviewing the jhana.

:heart:
Mike
Sorry I forgot to respond to this. In the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, on the section on Jhāna we find insight listed
Which are the states that are good?

When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by earth-gazing, enters into and abides in the First Jhāna (the first rapt meditation), wherein is thinking applied and sustained, which is born of solitude, and full of zest and ease—then the contact, the feeling … the grasp, the balance, which arise in him, or whatever other incorporeal, causally induced states that there are on that occasion—these are states that are good.

[Continue as in the First Type of Thought relating to the sensuous universe, including the Summary and “Emptiness” divisions.]

Which are the states that are good?

When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way [thereto], suppressing the working of applied and sustained thinking, and so, by earth-gazing, enters into and abides in the Second Jhāna (the second rapt meditation), which is self-evolved, born of concentration, full of zest and ease, in that, set free from the working of applied and sustained thinking, the mind grows calm and sure, dwelling on high—then the contact, the feeling, the perception, the volition, the thought, the joy, the ease, the self-collectedness, the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, insight, mind, happiness, and life, the right views, right endeavour, … the grasp, the balance that arises—these, or whatever other incorporeal, causally induced states that there are on that occasion—these are states that are good.

Summary
Now, on that occasion

the skandhas are four,
the spheres are two,
the elements are two,
the nutriments are three,
the faculties are eight,
the Jhāna is threefold,
the Path is fourfold,
the powers are seven,
the causes are three,
contact counts as a single factor,
etc., etc.
[Continue as in § 58 et seq.]

What on that occasion is the skandha of synergies?

Contact,
volition,
zest,
self-collectedness;
the faculties of

faith,
energy,
mindfulness,
concentration,
insight,
life;
right views,
right endeavour,
etc., etc.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.2/en/rhy ... ight=false
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
Ashkc
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Ashkc »

There are two types of jhanas.


Expositor pg 222 Fourfold Jhanas
<<Jhana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristics marks. Of these two, "object-scrutinizing" jhana examines closely those devices [self hypnotism] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is also so called. And because the characteristic of truth, it is also called "characteristic examining jhanas" Of these two kinds of jhana, the "object examining" mode is here intended. Here, from its examining the object, extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhana is to be thus understood.>>
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Eko Care
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Eko Care »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 26, 2024 5:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 25, 2024 8:56 pm According to the Abhidhamma, there is insight in Jhana.
That's interesting. Can you give some exact references? As far as I recall the Visuddhimagga talks about insight after exiting and reviewing the jhana.

:heart:
Mike
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:44 pm Sorry I forgot to respond to this. In the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, on the section on Jhāna we find insight listed
Which are the states that are good?

When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by earth-gazing, enters into and abides in the First Jhāna (the first rapt meditation), wherein is thinking applied and sustained, which is born of solitude, and full of zest and ease—then the contact, the feeling … the grasp, the balance, which arise in him, or whatever other incorporeal, causally induced states that there are on that occasion—these are states that are good.

[Continue as in the First Type of Thought relating to the sensuous universe, including the Summary and “Emptiness” divisions.]

Which are the states that are good?

When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he cultivates the way [thereto], suppressing the working of applied and sustained thinking, and so, by earth-gazing, enters into and abides in the Second Jhāna (the second rapt meditation), which is self-evolved, born of concentration, full of zest and ease, in that, set free from the working of applied and sustained thinking, the mind grows calm and sure, dwelling on high—then the contact, the feeling, the perception, the volition, the thought, the joy, the ease, the self-collectedness, the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, insight, mind, happiness, and life, the right views, right endeavour, … the grasp, the balance that arises—these, or whatever other incorporeal, causally induced states that there are on that occasion—these are states that are good.

Summary
Now, on that occasion

the skandhas are four,
the spheres are two,
the elements are two,
the nutriments are three,
the faculties are eight,
the Jhāna is threefold,
the Path is fourfold,
the powers are seven,
the causes are three,
contact counts as a single factor,
etc., etc.
[Continue as in § 58 et seq.]

What on that occasion is the skandha of synergies?

Contact,
volition,
zest,
self-collectedness;
the faculties of

faith,
energy,
mindfulness,
concentration,
insight,
life;
right views,
right endeavour,
etc., etc.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.2/en/rhy ... ight=false
Rhys Davids has translated the Pali word "Pannindriyam" as "insight".

This kind of problems and views arise if one depends on Unorthodox English translations.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:19 am

Rhys Davids has translated the Pali word "Pannindriyam" as "insight".

This kind of problems and views arise if one depends on Unorthodox English translations.
That means the faculty of wisdom/understanding/insight
“There is happiness arising from sensual pleasures and pain arising from seclusion; the pain springing from seclusion is better than the happiness arising from sensual pleasures”

Godattattheragāthā
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Eko Care
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Re: Ancient Atthakatha is more Trustworthy than Modern Conjecture

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:00 pm That means the faculty of wisdom/understanding/insight
Do you really think that "Panna=Vipassana", or just playing with Mike?
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