Enlightenment in Theravada

[Dhammakid]

Hello all,
While doing some random thinking, it has occurred to me that I can't think of an actual concrete concept of enlightenment in the Theravada tradition. As a matter of fact, with most of the literature from the Theravada tradition, the term "enlightenment" is rarely used (at least in my experience). I find the term used much more often in the Mahayana schools.

And yet, the basic story of the life of the Buddha remains the same for all traditions, each one talking about the Buddha attaining enlightenment as if it was a single event in time that happened in a flash of realization. The Theravada clearly takes the "gradual" stance on this issue, I suppose.

Is there a concept of sudden enlightenment or realization in Theravada? If so, how does this fit in with the Buddha's gradual path approach? If not, from where does the Mahayana derive this concept?


Dhammakid

[Ben]

Hi Kourtney

Ven Analayo discusses this issue in the chapter "Realization" in his outstanding "Satipatthana: te direct path to realization". I highly recommend that you acquire a copy.
kind regards

Ben

[Individual]

Hello all,
While doing some random thinking, it has occurred to me that I can't think of an actual concrete concept of enlightenment in the Theravada tradition. As a matter of fact, with most of the literature from the Theravada tradition, the term "enlightenment" is rarely used (at least in my experience). I find the term used much more often in the Mahayana schools.

And yet, the basic story of the life of the Buddha remains the same for all traditions, each one talking about the Buddha attaining enlightenment as if it was a single event in time that happened in a flash of realization. The Theravada clearly takes the "gradual" stance on this issue, I suppose.

Is there a concept of sudden enlightenment or realization in Theravada? If so, how does this fit in with the Buddha's gradual path approach? If not, from where does the Mahayana derive this concept?


Dhammakid

Random thinking:

The sort of thinking which results in discussing Mahayana on a Theravada forum.

There's no enlightenment in Theravada? What are Bodhi, Panna, Sotapanna, and Tathagata?

[Dhammakid]

Hello all,
While doing some random thinking, it has occurred to me that I can't think of an actual concrete concept of enlightenment in the Theravada tradition. As a matter of fact, with most of the literature from the Theravada tradition, the term "enlightenment" is rarely used (at least in my experience). I find the term used much more often in the Mahayana schools.

And yet, the basic story of the life of the Buddha remains the same for all traditions, each one talking about the Buddha attaining enlightenment as if it was a single event in time that happened in a flash of realization. The Theravada clearly takes the "gradual" stance on this issue, I suppose.

Is there a concept of sudden enlightenment or realization in Theravada? If so, how does this fit in with the Buddha's gradual path approach? If not, from where does the Mahayana derive this concept?


Dhammakid

Random thinking:

The sort of thinking which results in discussing Mahayana on a Theravada forum.

There's no enlightenment in Theravada? What are Bodhi, Panna, Sotapanna, and Tathagata?

I've seen plenty of discussions of Mahayana concepts on this board, and find no reason why I can't talk about it here. If you have a good reason, please "enlighten" me.

I understand random thinking isn't usually productive, but sometimes it does lead one to worthwhile questions relevant to their practice, or at least to discussions which reveal why it isn't.

I never said "there is no enlightenment in Theravada." I said I can't think of a concrete concept of it, particularly because the term "enlightenment" is rare in Theravada literature and discussions. Furthermore, the context of my post, I believe, makes it clear that I'm specifically referring to "sudden enlightenment" as commonly used when discussing the life story of the Buddha.


Dhammakid

[Dhammakid]

Eh, I'll answer anyway since I already saw it

I get what you're saying about the stages in Theravada (i.e. Bodhi, Panna, Sotapanna, and Tathagata), and can see how that would be considered a "concrete concept" of enlightenment. I guess since "enlightenment" in Theravada isn't usually discussed the same way it is in Mahayana, maybe there's something I'm missing in my understanding. Are there sudden realizations along the gradual path?


Dhammakid

[DNS]

I guess since "enlightenment" in Theravada isn't usually discussed the same way it is in Mahayana, maybe there's something I'm missing in my understanding. Are there sudden realizations along the gradual path?

From what I understand, it is a gradual path, but there are specific moments of Path entry and fruits at the noble levels. The full enlightenment experience happens at one moment, but there is a long gradual training preceding that.

Perhaps this sums up the Theravada perspective:

‘Just as the ocean slopes away gradually, tends down gradually without any abrupt precipice, even so this Dhamma and discipline is a gradual doing, a gradual training, a gradual practice. There is no sudden penetration of knowledge’ (Udana 54).

[Dhammakid]

I guess since "enlightenment" in Theravada isn't usually discussed the same way it is in Mahayana, maybe there's something I'm missing in my understanding. Are there sudden realizations along the gradual path?

From what I understand, it is a gradual path, but there are specific moments of Path entry and fruits at the noble levels. The full enlightenment experience happens at one moment, but there is a long gradual training preceding that.

Perhaps this sums up the Theravada perspective:

‘Just as the ocean slopes away gradually, tends down gradually without any abrupt precipice, even so this Dhamma and discipline is a gradual doing, a gradual training, a gradual practice. There is no sudden penetration of knowledge’ (Udana 54).

Thanks for your comments and the sutta reference. I remember seeing it on Access to Insight when first exploring Buddhism some years back.
What does the "full enlightenment experience" entail and how is it different than path entry and fruits?


Dhammakid

[Individual]

Eh, I'll answer anyway since I already saw it

I get what you're saying about the stages in Theravada (i.e. Bodhi, Panna, Sotapanna, and Tathagata), and can see how that would be considered a "concrete concept" of enlightenment. I guess since "enlightenment" in Theravada isn't usually discussed the same way it is in Mahayana, maybe there's something I'm missing in my understanding.

Not necessarily? Maybe the Mahayanists are stupid and nothing is missing.

Radical evangelical Christians don't discuss Buddhism the same way Theravada does ("Buddhism is a cynical atheistic cult which teaches people they are soulless creatures, whose only hope of salvation is the extinction of self-consciousness" ). But you wouldn't somehow think YOU are missing something merely because Christians talk that way, would you?

Are there sudden realizations along the gradual path?

Yes, every moment holds the potential for a sudden realization, along the gradual path, and as David says above, there are certain key moments, like the four stages of enlightenment.

However, that doesn't mean you can't experience spontaneous moments of insight too: "OMG! I just remembered I left the oven on!"

[DNS]

What does the "full enlightenment experience" entail and how is it different than path entry and fruits?

I don't know, but here's the Buddha response:

" And furthermore, just as the rivers of the world pour into the ocean, and rain falls from the sky, but no swelling or diminishing in the ocean for that reason can be discerned; in the same way, although many monks are totally unbound into the property of Unbinding with no fuel remaining, no swelling or diminishing in the property of Unbinding for that reason can be discerned... This is the fifth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline.
Udana 5.5

[Goofaholix]

The trouble with the concept of "sudden enlightenment" is why did it take Gautama Siddhartha several years of practice to achieve his enlightenment? surely if anyone were deserving a fast track it would have been him.

Theravada presents a gradual enlightenment only as far as I know. The problem with that is one could easily get into a mindset of x amount of my effort = my enlightenment, or alternatively one could get into the mindset of it's too long or difficult a path so I won't try. The concept of sudden enlightenment I see as a good counterbalance to those mindsets, as a skilful means rather than as a reality.

[Dhammakid]

Eh, I'll answer anyway since I already saw it

I get what you're saying about the stages in Theravada (i.e. Bodhi, Panna, Sotapanna, and Tathagata), and can see how that would be considered a "concrete concept" of enlightenment. I guess since "enlightenment" in Theravada isn't usually discussed the same way it is in Mahayana, maybe there's something I'm missing in my understanding.

Not necessarily? Maybe the Mahayanists are stupid and nothing is missing.

Radical evangelical Christians don't discuss Buddhism the same way Theravada does ("Buddhism is a cynical atheistic cult which teaches people they are soulless creatures, whose only hope of salvation is the extinction of self-consciousness" ). But you wouldn't somehow think YOU are missing something merely because Christians talk that way, would you?

Are there sudden realizations along the gradual path?

Yes, every moment holds the potential for a sudden realization, along the gradual path, and as David says above, there are certain key moments, like the four stages of enlightenment.

However, that doesn't mean you can't experience spontaneous moments of insight too: "OMG! I just remembered I left the oven on!"

Ah, I get what you're saying. Good point. I guess I just wanted to make sure "it wasn't me" I'm also slowly learning that even the basics of Buddhism are different between the two branches. Although the Mahayana does have concepts of gradual training (Vajrayana and "lam rim," "the ten bhumis", etc).

Thanks for your comments.


Dhammakid

[Dhammakid]

What does the "full enlightenment experience" entail and how is it different than path entry and fruits?

I don't know, but here's the Buddha response:

" And furthermore, just as the rivers of the world pour into the ocean, and rain falls from the sky, but no swelling or diminishing in the ocean for that reason can be discerned; in the same way, although many monks are totally unbound into the property of Unbinding with no fuel remaining, no swelling or diminishing in the property of Unbinding for that reason can be discerned... This is the fifth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline.
Udana 5.5

Please forgive me, I'm having a hard time understanding what this sutta is stating.

[Dhammakid]

The trouble with the concept of "sudden enlightenment" is why did it take Gautama Siddhartha several years of practice to achieve his enlightenment? surely if anyone were deserving a fast track it would have been him.

Theravada presents a gradual enlightenment only as far as I know. The problem with that is one could easily get into a mindset of x amount of my effort = my enlightenment, or alternatively one could get into the mindset of it's too long or difficult a path so I won't try. The concept of sudden enlightenment I see as a good counterbalance to those mindsets, as a skilful means rather than as a reality.

Good point on even the Buddha needing time to attain enlightenment.

I can see what you mean about a belief in sudden enlightenment being a skillful means to counter unskillful thoughts. Something I think about is that even if a person believing in sudden enlightenment were to become enlightened, it would be hard to call it "sudden" since it took practice to get there. I mean, maybe if it had only taken a few months to get there, you could call it "sudden"...


Dhammakid

[DNS]

What does the "full enlightenment experience" entail and how is it different than path entry and fruits?

I don't know, but here's the Buddha response:

" And furthermore, just as the rivers of the world pour into the ocean, and rain falls from the sky, but no swelling or diminishing in the ocean for that reason can be discerned; in the same way, although many monks are totally unbound into the property of Unbinding with no fuel remaining, no swelling or diminishing in the property of Unbinding for that reason can be discerned... This is the fifth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline that, as they see it again and again, has the monks greatly pleased with the Doctrine and Discipline.
Udana 5.5

Please forgive me, I'm having a hard time understanding what this sutta is stating.

My thinking is that it means the enlightened one at death has no fuel remaining (for continued existence as we know it), much different from even an anagami or sakadagami and as such 'enters' Nibbana but there is no swelling or diminishing in the property of Unbinding meaning no eternalism and no annhilation, but even that does not do it proper justice because of the constraints of language since Nibbana is neither existence, non-existence, both, or neither existence nor non-existence.

[Hanzze]

_/\_