Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

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nyanasuci
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Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by nyanasuci »

Dear Dhammawheel,

Unfortunately I rarely go on this forum, but I am very pleased that this page for Phenomenological perspective on Dhamma is open for discussion. I just thought to remind some of you to check some new articles written by Ven. Nanamoli whose stand is strongly on phenomenology and discuss the matter in not-so-easy-way.

http://pathpress.wordpress.com/category ... -notebook/

Regarding the difficulty to understand his texts he argues in one of the comments of one article.
… the lack of explanations in my recent essays are intentional; I’m more concerned with presenting things in an opanayiko way, i.e. “leading”, making one see for oneself,—the order of things, their nature—not just accepting it on account of intellectual satisfaction and/or compatibility with the respective views.

That’s why it would be wrong to regard these recent essays as a commentary to Ven. Ñanavira’s writtings. Although they both point at the same things, NoD are slightly more ’explanatory’ or ’informative’, i.e. they are much broader in terms of the context, but they are leading on in a lesser degree. This is really good and useful in the beginning when one is trying understand what needs to be understood and learn how to regard and read the Suttas. Once this is accomplished one has to carry on further and forsake even that “existential” approach one had in the beginning. That’s why I have taken for granted in my writings that the reader is already versed in Ñanavira’s Notes and Letters, which can be considered as a prerequisite for understanding my more recent essays. In other words, whatever I write stands directly upon the way I have understood NoD, but it is not concerned with it (the concern are the Suttas, which were understood through NoD).
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2013/03/ ... omment-475

Though the difficulty, you might find them as pleasant challenge to your phenomenological observation of the experience. If you have any question for the author, you can let me know since he doesn't use forums.

Good luck!
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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pulga
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by pulga »

I believe I'm at variance with both Ven.Ñanananda and Ven. Thanissaro on this point so I hesitate to post it publicly. But there are those who contend that viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a consciousness of a "realm" (ayatana) beyond the six sense bases, but it seems to me that there are six types of viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ of the arahat corresponding to each of the saḷāyatanāni, just as there are six types of consciousness for the puthujjana (cf. Mahāhatthipadopamasutta, M28) only in regards to the arahat his consciousness is untainted by the āsavas of sensual desire, being, and ignorance. While we can't say that they share the same world, the worlds of each are structurally the same, the difference being the way in which they are experienced, cf. Ven. Ñanavira's chessboard.

There is an interesting sutta – the Kāmaguṇasutta (SN35.117) – that states that that base (ayatana) is to be known where both counterparts of the duality of the saḷāyatana cease. (I prefer the Burmese reading here.) But this I take has more to do with the profound implications of the ceasing of the “ground level” that Ven. Ñāṇavīra refers to in his Shorter Note on Dhamma, i.e. the infinite mind that Ven. N. Ñanamoli writes of rests upon a sub-structure of what is manifestly changing -- changing in the absolute sense. In light of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's writings – especially the second part to Fundamental Structure which deals with the structure of time– this is really a striking sutta. (Ven. Bodhi's translation is available at SuttaCentral: it's fairly good though given that "citta" and "cetaso" are used quite a bit I think the English Ñanamoli's "cognizance" would have added a little more precision to the translation.)

http://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/

I just discovered Ven. Ñāṇavīra's letter to Mr. Brady that explains his understanding of the term viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ:

http://www.nanavira.org/index.php/lette ... ember-1964
Last edited by pulga on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by gavesako »

Finally! The "Nanamoli Abhidhamma" :tongue: :reading:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by culaavuso »

[url=http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/determining-determinations/]Determining Determinations[/url] by Ven. Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli wrote: Thus, the five aggregates, which are necessary in one’s experience, come to exist, through the assuming of them as that which is necessary in one’s experience. But since they are necessary in one’s experience, assuming them as necessary in one’s experience is not necessary. But until one knows that, that assumption will exist.
This is reminiscent of another quote:
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/consciousnesses.html]Consciousnesses[/url] by Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo wrote: When we contemplate so as to see things in this way, dispassion arises. Cakkhusmimpi nibbindati. We feel dispassion for the eye. Rupesupi nibbindati. Dispassion for forms. Cakkhu-viññanepi nibbindati. Dispassion for consciousness. We really get tired of it. It's a genuine nuisance to our heart. Nibbindam virajjati, viraga vimuccati. We spit them out. The eye spits out forms. It spits out consciousness. It spits them out, because it's had enough.

Sotasmimpi nibbindati. We feel dispassion for the ear. Saddesupi nibbindati. Dispassion for sounds. Sota-viññanepi nibbindati. Dispassion for consciousness. Viraga vimuccati. We spit them all out.
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by gavesako »

The difference is that according to Ajaan Lee, this kind of dispassion only arises as a result of developing the mind in samadhi and gaining intuitive knowledge based on the power of jhana, not through phenomenological analysis.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by nyanasuci »

Hi, culaavuso,
Soon you will be able to read more about it.

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Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by SDC »

I assume Ven. Nyanasuci is either recovering from this most recent release or is working hard on the next and is unable to give the update, but I just wanted to let everyone who is interested know that Ven. N. Nanamoli's book Meanings is now available for purchase over at Path Press. As of now it appears they have only produced 125 copies in hardcover so do not delay if you are interested.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Looks awesome, but I hope there's a cheaper/lighter softcover version at some point, because I don't think I can personally justify 26 Euro worth of postage for a book (although I completely believe them when they say that's the actual postage rate).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by SDC »

I imagine a soft cover is eventually going to be printed. Hoping for one. Hardcovers are not fit for my lifestyle. I have a tendency to throw them around in my car and they take a beating. :D I did order a copy, but I'm going to utilize the pdf for the time being and keep the hardcover on the shelf.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by nyanasuci »

Thank you SDC for informing of the printing of MEANINGS. It took a bit of time to finalize it, but here it is.

http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2014/06/ ... -nanamoli/

Soft-cover (paperback) might appear some time in future if there is enough interest in the book. But anyway – apparently – such lighter edition would not make much (or any) difference to cost of the posting. That is indeed unfortunate.

Anyway, I hope you will enjoy reading the book. Hard-cover books have longer life-span so, do not be afraid to use it a lot. ;-)

All the best!

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Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by BlackBird »

Having read a good portion of this in draft format, I would have to say for those with a phenomenological Dhamma-bent, or indeed for Nyanavarians it would be well worth the investment.

One might also find individual articles by Bhante Nyanamoli on the pathpress website here:
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/author/nyanamoli/

metta
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by SDC »

.......................
Last edited by SDC on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by pulga »

"The experience, whether mundane or subliminal, possesses certain characteristics, and the most prominent among them is that it is hierarchically ordered. This hierarchy goes into infinity in both directions, and this is something which can be seen from the nature of particulars and generals. If we take a look at our own experience as it is, we can see that there are two aspects which appear as being more pronounced than anything else. Those aspects are known as immediacy and reflexion. Together they comprise this hierarchy of the experience as a whole. Thus, the hierarchy we have been referring to can be called reflexive hierarchy.1 If we want to be more precise we can say that immediacy and reflexion, respectively, represent two different modes of experiencing this hierarchy. In immediacy, reflexion is not directly present; it is there, but placed in the background. In reflexion, the immediate object is seen from an additional point of view, which means that once we reflect upon something, immediacy does not disappear, it rather becomes secondary to the field of attention but, nevertheless, it remains there:

In immediate experience the thing is present; in reflexive experience the thing is again present, but as implicit in a more general thing. Thus in reflexion the thing is twice present, once immediately and once reflexively. This is true of reflexion both in the loose sense (as reflection or discursive thinking) and a fortiori in the stricter sense (for the reason that reflection involves reflexion, though not vice versa). See MANO and also VIÑÑĀṆA. – Ñāṇavīra Thera, Notes on Dhamma, ATTĀ, p. 54, footnote a.
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... awareness/

Are we dealing with a hierarchy of consciousness in which wholes are layered above one another in such a way that a thing in reflexion presents itself twice: both as a (whole) piece and as a moment of a more general whole? Cf. the diagram below:

Image
Wholes can be analyzed into two different kinds of parts: pieces and moments. Pieces are parts that can subsist and be presented even apart from the whole; they can be detached from their wholes. Pieces can also be called independent parts.

Examples of pieces are leaves and acorns, which can be separated from their tree and still present themselves as independent entities. Even a branch of a tree is an independent part, because it can be separated from the tree; when so separated it no longer functions as a living branch and becomes only a piece of wood, but it still can exist and be perceived as an independent thing. Also, the parts of a machine, a member of a troupe of actors, a soldier in a platoon are pieces within their respective wholes. Such things do in fact belong to their larger whole (the machine, the troupe, the platoon), but they can also be themselves and present themselves apart from that whole. When so separated, pieces become wholes in themselves and are no longer parts. Pieces, then, are parts that can become wholes.

Moments are parts that cannot subsist or be presented apart from the whole to which they belong; they cannot be detached. Moments are nonindependent parts.

Examples of moments are the color red (or any other color), which cannot occur apart from some surface or spatial expanse, and musical pitch, which cannot exist except as blended with a sound, and also vision, which cannot occur except as dependent upon the eye. Such parts are nonindependent and cannot exist or be presented by themselves. A branch can be cut off from a tree, but the pitch cannot be isolated from a sound and vision cannot float away
from the eye. Moments cannot be except as blended with other moments. Moments are the kind of part that cannot become a whole. Sokolowski -- Introduction to Phenomenology


If so, then is the hierarchy of awareness a hierarchy of reflexive intention as opposed to a hierarchy of immediate, pre-reflexive experience? Cf. the diagram below:

Image

Another way of saying this is that the 'potential' reflexive hierarchy—which we might call pre-reflexive—is a hierarchy of consciousness (viññāna), not of awareness (sampajañña). For awareness, reflexive intention is necessary. -- SN Dhamma
While the diagram symbolizes awareness -- i.e. the presence of the presence of a thing -- I don't think it is accurate to describe it as a hierarchy of awareness. It displays the existing body in its temporal dimensions amidst its surroundings, all of which are equiprimordial, i.e. of the same level of being.
Last edited by pulga on Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by SDC »

.......................
Last edited by SDC on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: Phenomenological writting by Ven. N. Nanamoli

Post by pulga »

If you scroll down a bit on Ben Goertzel's essay and read his thoughts on the phenomenology of time you might get a sense of how the horizontal and vertical (perpendicular) hierarchies provide the framework for the presence of a temporal object, i.e. the particular situation that we find ourselves in at any given time. His "full-on, ultra-deluxe consciousness iteration" explains why we are dealing with layers of pancakhandha as opposed to layers of mere consciousness (cf. Ñanavira [L.86/93]. The object can be taken either monothetically or polythetically: the monothetical emphasizes the vertical hierarchy and the sameness of a temporally enduring object, the polythetical emphasizes the horizontal hierarchy that gives the object its contextual meaning. (Sameness does entail the horizontal, but the difference between the layers is disregarded.)

http://www.goertzel.org/papers/timepap.html

Goertzel does believe that consciousness shapes experience, but I would take consciousness to be the mere presence of the object -- and that it is feeling through intentionality that shapes experience (yaṃ vedeti taṃ sañjānāti). I find it difficult to follow his mathematical rigor, but just a perusal of the essay provides some insights that are noteworthy.
...I proposed a model of consciousness called the Perceptual- Cognitive Loop. The idea of the Perceptual-Cognitive Loop, in brief, is that consciousness involves circuits joining the perceptual areas of the mind/brain and the cognitive areas of the mind/brain. The purpose of these circuits is to create coherent wholes: to take disparate collections of sense-stimuli and form coherent percepts; or to take disparate ideas or fragments of ideas and fuse them into coherent concepts. In essence, what this means is that consciousness makes things real: it makes them solid and substantial rather than fluctuating and ill-defined. (emphasis added)
Like Husserl and Sartre, Goertzel seems to ascribe some sort of agency to consciousness which I think is out of place. His "mind/brain" needn't be reified, and might be taken as the manāyatana, i.e. the mind-base that inherently finds itself in a duality with its object: the two together being what Goertzel refers to as a "circuit".
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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