Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Feelings are not resisted. One develops an equanimous relationship to them. They are not I, mine or my self. They are in a continuous flux, and to stay in the present moment truth, the abandoning of them is cultivated. They are accepted and let go of. Some would even say that during the training it is important to nurture a kindness in relation to them.

During the hour/s of formal meditation one is silent, no lies are spoken. One is still, no thieving is done. Likewise sex, entertainment, taking intoxicants and the greatest of virtues, patience, is practiced. During these hours the habits of equanimous mindfulness are developed in relation to any truths that manifest.

These are habits that continue when not meditating formally and the tendencies to break Silas are diluted. Also, when one then again sits the unpleasant remorse and shame feelings rise more easily and one either stops meditating or undertakes to not do things that cause remorse. So, yes (except it is not resisting feelings)
pegembara
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by pegembara »

Every moment that one meditates is a moment when one is not killing, stealing, engaging in wrong speech, having sex or taking intoxicants. As sensations arise, underlying tendencies are gradually replaced by the middle path inclination of equanimity.
What if instead of this, restate that as long as one is mindful, one will not be doing those things mentioned?

"What is this most important thing of all? It’s called self-observation. No one can help you there. No one can give you a method. No one can show you a technique. The moment you pick up a technique, you’re programmed again. But self-observation—watching yourself—is important. It is not the same as self-absorption. Self-absorption is self-preoccupation, where you are concerned about yourself, worried about yourself. I’m talking about self-observation. What’s that? It means to watch everything in you and around you as far as possible and watch it as if it were happening to someone else. What does that last sentence mean? It means that you do not personalize what is happening to you. It means that you look at things as if you have no connection with them whatsoever.”

Anthony de Mello
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

The mindfulness has to be with atapi sampajano satima. Otherwise one may be mindful while breaking a precept for example or with the mindfulness of a racing car driver. Neither being liberating.

Tony de Mello was an unusual Catholic. Served in Goa? From memory.
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SDC
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

sunnat wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:21 am Feelings are not resisted. One develops an equanimous relationship to them. They are not I, mine or my self. They are in a continuous flux, and to stay in the present moment truth, the abandoning of them is cultivated. They are accepted and let go of. Some would even say that during the training it is important to nurture a kindness in relation to them.

During the hour/s of formal meditation one is silent, no lies are spoken. One is still, no thieving is done. Likewise sex, entertainment, taking intoxicants and the greatest of virtues, patience, is practiced. During these hours the habits of equanimous mindfulness are developed in relation to any truths that manifest.

These are habits that continue when not meditating formally and the tendencies to break Silas are diluted. Also, when one then again sits the unpleasant remorse and shame feelings rise more easily and one either stops meditating or undertakes to not do things that cause remorse. So, yes (except it is not resisting feelings)
In other words, insight meditation purifies the tendencies that lead to breaking precepts? So, a person doesn’t really develop virtue directly, they just meditate until the tendencies go away and then they’ll be able to be virtuous?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Let’s say someone correctly practices equanimity towards these sense impressions, sitting for four hours each day, would it have any effect if their virtue hasn’t been purified first? What I mean is, say we are talking about some who doesn’t follow the precepts, what benefits would they get from practicing this methods of resisting feeling in regard to sense impressions?‘

a person who follows the precepts already will have an easier time
pegembara
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Re:

Post by pegembara »

sunnat wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:31 am The mindfulness has to be with atapi sampajano satima. Otherwise one may be mindful while breaking a precept for example or with the mindfulness of a racing car driver. Neither being liberating.

Tony de Mello was an unusual Catholic. Served in Goa? From memory.
The attentiveness of a racing driver or sniper doesn't count IMO. Those individuals are totally self-absorbed in completing their mission.
The only mindfulness that counts is those that relate to body, feeling, and mind—watching them as if they are not ours but merely the products of causes and conditions.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Post by sunnat »

correct
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SDC
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

sunnat wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:43 pmLet’s say someone correctly practices equanimity towards these sense impressions, sitting for four hours each day, would it have any effect if their virtue hasn’t been purified first? What I mean is, say we are talking about some who doesn’t follow the precepts, what benefits would they get from practicing this methods of resisting feeling in regard to sense impressions?‘

a person who follows the precepts already will have an easier time
But if they don’t, are you saying there can still be results? What I’m getting at is the implication that what matters most is what you do while sitting and that everything else will sort itself out as a result. Is that the purpose of insight meditation?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mikenz66
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:41 pm
sunnat wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 11:43 pmLet’s say someone correctly practices equanimity towards these sense impressions, sitting for four hours each day, would it have any effect if their virtue hasn’t been purified first? What I mean is, say we are talking about some who doesn’t follow the precepts, what benefits would they get from practicing this methods of resisting feeling in regard to sense impressions?‘

a person who follows the precepts already will have an easier time
But if they don’t, are you saying there can still be results? What I’m getting at is the implication that what matters most is what you do while sitting and that everything else will sort itself out as a result. Is that the purpose of insight meditation?
This thread seems to have drifted far beyond Goenka, to a querying of any kind of "formal" practice. I know that this is a theme of Ven N Nanamoli, RobertK, and yourself. I think they give some good warnings about misusing meditation practice, but I'm not really convinced by the overall argument.

The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience. With a little of thatt clarity, it becomes possible to make some real changes in ones life. However, it is a slow and somewhat circular process.

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Mike
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SDC
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:19 pm
This thread seems to have drifted far beyond Goenka, to a querying of any kind of "formal" practice. I know that this is a theme of Ven N Nanamoli, RobertK, and yourself. I think they give some good warnings about misusing meditation practice, but I'm not really convinced by the overall argument.

The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience. With a little of thatt clarity, it becomes possible to make some real changes in ones life. However, it is a slow and somewhat circular process.

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Mike
Hi Mike,

This did head in the direction of discussing “insight meditation” in general, but that was on account of one of the participants using the phrase interchangeably with the Goenka method.

The only issue I’ve ever had is the implication that somehow what happens on the cushion sorts out the world off the cushion. That seems to be what is being described in this thread. That is not to say that one does not have to do some heavy contemplation and reflection in order to set the mind up for a lifestyle of virtue and sense restraint (which can be done while sitting quietly), but again, the implication seems to be that these formal meditation techniques train the mind and remove the tendency to break precepts, and therefore that is where the possibility of virtue begins.

The possibility of virtue begins with the practice of virtue. After it has been thoroughly considered and understood. Actively setup and thought about. Accumulated virtue heads in the direction of joy, rapture, etc., which is not possible for someone who is routinely breaking the precepts. In other words, a person first considers why and how to change the lifestyle through the introduction of precepts. Then they implement the precepts. Then they build an understanding of what is there as a result of conduct that avoids unwholesome, and joy is the result of that. Someone who can’t be bothered to build that virtue has no access to that joy or clarity, so whatever they do during a formal sitting is unrelated to the direction of samadhi. I’m sure they relax and feel good, but for what purpose? To be more efficient at work? Be happier with life? What the heck does that have to do with right view??? :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

It can be a long slow path, and for many it is, many lifetimes. Little by little.

For some like : The Story of Bilalapadaka

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (122) of this book, with reference to Bilalapadaka, a rich man.

Once, a man from Savatthi, having heard a discourse given by the Buddha, was very much impressed, and decided to practise what was taught by the Buddha. The exhortation was to give in charity not only by oneself but also to get others to do so and that by so doing one would gain much merit and have a large number of followers in the next existence. So, that man invited the Buddha and all the resident bhikkhus in the Jetavana monastery for alms-food the next day. Then he went round to each one of the houses and informed the residents that alms-food would he offered the next day to the Buddha and other bhikkhus and so to contribute according to their wishes. The rich man Bilalapadaka seeing the man goings round from house to house disapproved of his behaviour and felt a strong dislike for him and murmured to himself, "O this wretched man! Why did he not invite as many bhikkhus as he could himself offer alms, instead of going round coaxing people?" So he asked the man to bring his bowl and into this bowl, he put only a little rice, only a little butter, only a little molass. These were taken away separately and not mixed with what others had given. The rich men could not understand why his things were kept separately, and he thought perhaps that man wanted others to know that a rich man like him had contributed very little and so put him to shame. Therefore, he sent a servant to find out.

The promoter of charity put a little of everything that was given by the rich man into various pots of rice and curry and sweetmeats so that the rich man may gain much merit. His servant reported what he had seen; but Bilalapadaka did not get the meaning and was not sure of the intention of the promoter of charity. However, the next day he went to the place where alms-food was being offered. At the same time, he took a knife with him, intending to kill the chief promoter of charity, if he were to reveal in public just how little a rich man like him had contributed.

But this promoter of charity said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir, this charity is a joint offering of all; whether one has given much or little is of no account; each one of us has given in faith and generosity; so may all of us gain equal merit." When he heard those words, Bilalpadaka realized that he had wronged the man and pondered that if he were not to own up his mistake and ask the promoter of charity to pardon him, he would he reborn in one of the four lower worlds (apayas). So he said, "My friend, I have done you a great wrong by thinking ill of you; please forgive me." The Buddha heard the rich man asking for pardon, and on enquiry found out the reason. So, the Buddha said, "My disciple, you should not think lightly of a good deed, however small it may be, for small deeds will become big if you do them habitually."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 122: One should not think lightly of doing good, imagining 'A little will not affect me'; just as a water-jar is filled up by falling drops of rain, so also, the wise one is filled up with merit, by accumulating it little by little.

At the end of the discourse, Bilalapadaka the rich man attained Sotapatti Fruition.
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mikenz66
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:29 pmSomeone who can’t be bothered to build that virtue has no access to that joy or clarity, so whatever they do during a formal sitting is unrelated to the direction of samadhi. I’m sure they relax and feel good, but for what purpose? To be more efficient at work? Be happier with life? What the heck does that have to do with right view??? :tongue:
Well, of course, I agree, that would not be liberating. I didn't suggest such an approach in my post.

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Mike
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

There is no ‘Goenka method’. Goenkaji taught the concentration (anapana) and insight (vipassana) as taught by his teacher U Ba Khin as taught by his teacher etc to Ledi Sayadaw and so on.

It is a long path, stretching through many lifetimes of accumulated merits. It is why someone who habitually breaks all the precepts can progress quickly. It depends on past kammas resultants coming to fruition. Where does virtue really begin? Who knows? One is only the owner of one’s kammas and resultants. For someone to awaken (re awaken) virtuous tendencies may mean a concerted mental effort, for some it may mean the experience of being forgiven. Whatever it may be that awakens one to knowing remorse and shame and hence a valuing of virtues doesn’t matter. It all depends on conditions determined by past actions.
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SDC
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

sunnat wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:34 am There is no ‘Goenka method’. Goenkaji taught the concentration (anapana) and insight (vipassana) as taught by his teacher U Ba Khin as taught by his teacher etc to Ledi Sayadaw and so on.

It is a long path, stretching through many lifetimes of accumulated merits. It is why someone who habitually breaks all the precepts can progress quickly. It depends on past kammas resultants coming to fruition. Where does virtue really begin? Who knows? One is only the owner of one’s kammas and resultants. For someone to awaken (re awaken) virtuous tendencies may mean a concerted mental effort, for some it may mean the experience of being forgiven. Whatever it may be that awakens one to knowing remorse and shame and hence a valuing of virtues doesn’t matter. It all depends on conditions determined by past actions.
I think we may be having some terminology issues. When I say say “develop virtue” I’m referring to building a lifestyle around the precepts. Are you saying that Ledi Sayadaw did not encourage people to follow the precepts and that past action determines everything? And all they have to do is practice meditation?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:19 pm The way I see it, the usefulness of formal meditation practice is that it gives the possibility of developing enough calm and clarity to see clearly what is being clung to. It may be possible to develop that clarity without formal practice, but that's not my experience. With a little of thatt clarity, it becomes possible to make some real changes in ones life. However, it is a slow and somewhat circular process.
Doing X to get Y is the sensual approach. One should be wary of any calm and clarity that results from assuming that framework, even if (or maybe especially if) it is something as lofty as a formal meditation practice. That greater perspective, that wariness of results dependent on particular actions, is the direction of renunciation, the foundation of which can only be virtue and restraint.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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