Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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skandha
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 1:21 am [

Hi Sunnat,

You and I have been through this before in this thread, and it seems “sensation” remains ambiguous. The term in the above sutta is vedanā (feeling), which can be bodily in its origin, but is also always mental. Though if you are talking about bodily touches, that would be the term phoṭṭhabba. Like I’ve indicated in past discussions, when people say “sensations” it seems to be a hybrid term covering both perception and feeling, and it isn’t exactly clear how the suttas apply to it.
Hi SDC,
I agree that the word sensation used in the Goenka circles is ambiguous which they use as a translation for vedana. In the Goenka circles vedana is often emphasised as physical which is different from the orthodox view of vedana being an affective quality, a mental phenomena. The way I see it, physical sensations are more like the pressure of phassa (contact) on the 5 physical senses which is simultaneously accompanied by vedana. For me in terms of practice it is easier to anchor the attention on the pressure on the physical, on which you can also know the affective vedana simultaneously.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

skandha wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:49 am Hi SDC,
I agree that the word sensation used in the Goenka circles is ambiguous which they use as a translation for vedana. In the Goenka circles vedana is often emphasised as physical which is different from the orthodox view of vedana being an affective quality, a mental phenomena. The way I see it, physical sensations are more like the pressure of phassa (contact) on the 5 physical senses which is simultaneously accompanied by vedana. For me in terms of practice it is easier to anchor the attention on the pressure on the physical, on which you can also know the affective vedana simultaneously.
Hi skandha,

Thanks for the clarification.

It complicates things if suttas about either vedanā (feeling) or phassa (contact) are used interchangeably to illustrate a single technique, which I’m sure you would agree with, but others take similar liberties, so I’m not singling out Goenka here.

Just to clarify the usage of “sensation”: you find it to be closer to the meaning of phassa in the classic sense of the “meeting of the three” (eye, sights, eye-consciousness, etc.), with vedanā understood as being simultaneously present (in whatever way it is)? Would you say this is comparable to a contemporary understanding of sense impression, as in the direct experience of sense organ and sense object? The only issue that comes up with “sense impression” for phassa is the meaning of saḷāyatana (six sense base), which includes both the interior and exterior (sense and sense base already together), and seems to imply phassa has a broader meaning than just the impression (or sensation). The description starts with, “In dependence on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact…”. A witnessing of this “association” is problematic since there would have to be a neutral, exterior position before, during and after the sense impression, which assumes a broader sense impression of that neutrality. What I mean is, there would have to be a field within which these three things come together and meet, creating a sensation, and that implies having first perceived the field: a sense impression of the field of sense impression - an infinite regress.

This is more of my issue with the classic interpretation of phassa, but the Goenka model perhaps runs into the same problem when attempting to reconcile that assumed external position, which would be required to directly witness a sensation in its origin. What might settle the issue is an understanding that does not conceive of that external position, and takes feeling as a converging point already supported by what appears. To say it another way: the appearance is there, the feeling is there. There can be knowledge that a living body, with functioning faculties, is required for such an experience to be present, without having conceived witnessing it. And I think that allows for the right emphasis. There’s no need for that external position. A person finds themselves already immersed in an experience, already understood a certain way, and that is what must be further understood within a lifestyle of virtue and restraint. Let me know your thoughts on this.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Post by sunnat »

The training is progressive. Equanimity is one of the parmis that is developed over time. It’s not in any way whatsoever an attitude of indifference. Possibly a common misunderstanding (to be abandoned). It’s mindful awareness of reality. Reality is what is happening in the present. The world is the totality of what is experienced by way of the senses or the mind body phenomenon. The meeting of the three is a word used to label the ‘meeting of the three’. The result of ‘the meeting of the three’ is the sensory impression of that organ. For example an opinion, a touch etc. This is the totality of what is known as The World. One either clings to it as pleasant unpleasant or neutral, considering whatever phenomenon one runs with to be I mine or my self OR one trains to abandon such delusions. That training develops the equanimity parmi that eventually leads to enlightenment.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:48 am The training is progressive. Equanimity is one of the parmis that is developed over time. It’s not in any way whatsoever an attitude of indifference. Possibly a common misunderstanding (to be abandoned). It’s mindful awareness of reality. Reality is what is happening in the present. The world is the totality of what is experienced by way of the senses or the mind body phenomenon. The meeting of the three is a word used to label the ‘meeting of the three’. The result of ‘the meeting of the three’ is the sensory impression of that organ. For example an opinion, a touch etc. This is the totality of what is known as The World. One either clings to it as pleasant unpleasant or neutral, considering whatever phenomenon one runs with to be I mine or my self OR one trains to abandon such delusions. That training develops the equanimity parmi that eventually leads to enlightenment.
Hi Sunnat, but that is not normally the language being used to describe the method, but perhaps I’m confusing Goenka with the Insight methods. Typically, the instruction is to be equanimous no matter what sensations arise, but that does not seem plausible since the practice cannot start from a position of even knowing what it means to be equanimous, which is a result of well-established virtue, restraint, disenchantment and dispassion. My point - and this is not directed towards you or skandha - is that people are very casual with how they describe these methods and I think it is more useful for people to be more descriptive like you both have done.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 1:51 pm... perhaps I’m confusing Goenka with the Insight methods. Typically, the instruction is to be equanimous no matter what sensations arise, but that does not seem plausible since the practice cannot start from a position of even knowing what it means to be equanimous, which is a result of well-established virtue, restraint, disenchantment and dispassion. My point - and this is not directed towards you or skandha - is that people are very casual with how they describe these methods and I think it is more useful for people to be more descriptive like you both have done.
I'm not particularly familiar with the Goenka approach, since I only did one such retreat about 16 years ago. However, I think that you are way overthinking the relationship between the basic instructions in various approaches (Goenka, Mahasi, etc) and the goal of practice. In my experience, when a beginner is told to "just watch what happens" or "be equanimous" by knowledgeable teachers, that's just a starting point, and a small part of the total instruction and isn't implying that one can just develop equanimity in the sense of an awakening factor by just deciding to be equanimous. There will definitely be instructions on "well-established virtue, restraint, disenchantment and dispassion", personal discussion with the student, modified instructions as the student develops, and so on. My only Goenka retreat was a bit lacking in the personal discussion with the student part for my taste, though I did get some helpful advice from the "assistant teacher" when I had some particular issues. As you point out, some details of interpretation seemed a bit different from what I was used to, but then that's the case with a number of modern teachers, monastic or otherwise.

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:59 pm However, I think that you are way overthinking the relationship between the basic instructions in various approaches (Goenka, Mahasi, etc) and the goal of practice. In my experience, when a beginner is told to "just watch what happens" or "be equanimous" by knowledgeable teachers, that's just a starting point, and a small part of the total instruction and isn't implying that one can just develop equanimity in the sense of an awakening factor by just deciding to be equanimous.
When have I ever been known to overthink anything? :D

Starting point or not, if the teacher is not explicit as to what that actually means, they may end up propagating the idea that a person is capable of drumming up equanimity without even understanding what metta is, not to mention everything that comes before that. My overall point is, if a teacher wants to tell a person to endure mental pressure and feelings without acting out, they don’t have to reinvent the wheel and call it “being equanimous”. Virtue. Guarding the sense doors. Restraint. That is literally the training to not act out of being pressured. It’s a redundant system and it can be confusing when not clarified, which I appreciate @skandha and @sunnat efforts to do so.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 12:33 am
mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:59 pm However, I think that you are way overthinking the relationship between the basic instructions in various approaches (Goenka, Mahasi, etc) and the goal of practice. In my experience, when a beginner is told to "just watch what happens" or "be equanimous" by knowledgeable teachers, that's just a starting point, and a small part of the total instruction and isn't implying that one can just develop equanimity in the sense of an awakening factor by just deciding to be equanimous.
When have I ever been known to overthink anything? :D

Starting point or not, if the teacher is not explicit as to what that actually means, they may end up propagating the idea that a person is capable of drumming up equanimity without even understanding what metta is, not to mention everything that comes before that. My overall point is, if a teacher wants to tell a person to endure mental pressure and feelings without acting out, they don’t have to reinvent the wheel and call it “being equanimous”. Virtue. Guarding the sense doors. Restraint. That is literally the training to not act out of being pressured. It’s a redundant system and it can be confusing when not clarified, which I appreciate @skandha and @sunnat efforts to do so.
I still think you're overthinking it. Every teacher explains things in their own words. But I agree that it is useful for people who are familiar with this particular approach to explain more about it. Soundbites from the basic instructions from any teacher will sound simplistic.

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Post by sunnat »

The structure of a 10 day course is : Apply. If given a place turn up and fill in form. Set up in accommodation. Listen to intro talk, have dinner. When bell goes go to meditation hall and sit where assigned. First evening instructions start with intro talk. In English in English speaking countries. (Students from other countries go to an audio room to listen in their language)
New students take five precepts, old students 8.
Taking refuge in the triple gem is done three times each.
Then a request to learn anapana is recited.

Anapana instructions are given and a short period for practice and then rest.

So as can be seen the precept are primary.

To help keep them the first nine days are noble silence. Buddha said repeatedly either talk about the dhamma or be silent. So be silent and when necessary talk with the camp teacher about the practice. Sexes are segregated. Valuables are locked in a safe. Food is vegetarian. The discourses regularly talk about the value of life. Intoxicants are not allowed. Prescription medications are usually up to the person to police. For old students, the extra three precepts are up to the student to adhere to. In the evening it means a glass of lemon water with honey at the most. Public stretching and exercise apart from walking is not encouraged.

So. The virtues and restraints are primary. Daily chanting and talks emphasise ‘ may all beings be happy peaceful and liberated’
skandha
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:14 pm Just to clarify the usage of “sensation”: you find it to be closer to the meaning of phassa in the classic sense of the “meeting of the three” (eye, sights, eye-consciousness, etc.), with vedanā understood as being simultaneously present (in whatever way it is)? Would you say this is comparable to a contemporary understanding of sense impression, as in the direct experience of sense organ and sense object? The only issue that comes up with “sense impression” for phassa is the meaning of saḷāyatana (six sense base), which includes both the interior and exterior (sense and sense base already together), and seems to imply phassa has a broader meaning than just the impression (or sensation). The description starts with, “In dependence on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact…”.
From a general contemporary understanding of the term sense impression, devoid of any philosophical positions, I would say phassa is sense impression. The word impression itself implies contact. I think sense impression is a great way to explain phassa for the 5 physical senses, minus the contact of mind objects with the mind. I don't see any problem with including both the interior and exterior sense base and I feel that it does not imply a broader meaning than just the sense impression. The external sense base of sights, sounds, smells, taste and touch impinging on the internal sense base, faculty of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body; is basically just sense impression. Using this model there is no need to emphasise the agent/object out there that may be the origin of the external sense base of sights, sounds, smells, taste and touch. I would even go so far as to say that these "external" sense base can only be experienced internally as there is really no sights out there. Sight is an experience of the eye faculty.
SDC wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:14 pm A witnessing of this “association” is problematic since there would have to be a neutral, exterior position before, during and after the sense impression, which assumes a broader sense impression of that neutrality. What I mean is, there would have to be a field within which these three things come together and meet, creating a sensation, and that implies having first perceived the field: a sense impression of the field of sense impression - an infinite regress.
It may seem there is a witnessing of this "association" and there is an external position, if we assume the position that there is an external independent self.

However if we take the position that the self is that which is defined by and relies on these sense impressions (and other aggregated factors) then I don't see any problem with this coming together model. If there is a field within which these three components coming together and meeting, then it is conditionality, in which I am not sure if you could even call this a "field". I am not sure if I understand what you mean that you first perceived the field because if there is no sensation then there is no perception. There can be an insight of conditionality in that at first the sensation is not there but then the sensation arises, I doubt this equates to perceiving the field,
SDC wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 4:14 pm This is more of my issue with the classic interpretation of phassa, but the Goenka model perhaps runs into the same problem when attempting to reconcile that assumed external position, which would be required to directly witness a sensation in its origin. What might settle the issue is an understanding that does not conceive of that external position, and takes feeling as a converging point already supported by what appears. To say it another way: the appearance is there, the feeling is there. There can be knowledge that a living body, with functioning faculties, is required for such an experience to be present, without having conceived witnessing it. And I think that allows for the right emphasis. There’s no need for that external position. A person finds themselves already immersed in an experience, already understood a certain way, and that is what must be further understood within a lifestyle of virtue and restraint. Let me know your thoughts on this.
Yes, as you seen what I wrote above earlier, I actually do not conceive an external position, as I don't take sights as something that exists out there, even though it is termed "external sense base". The "external" is an inferred understanding.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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skandha
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:18 pm
I think it’s sensible that you are describing it that way because typically this whole “be equanimous” comes off like mechanical denial of the arisen pain (or pleasure, or neutral) thereby dismissing access to the origin of that pain, which, according to the Buddha is craving - an order that can only be seen by enduring the provocation to act, which reveals the direction of the pressure. Unfortunately, that “be equanimous” attitude has made its way deep into the vernacular, not just coming from the Goenka crowd, but of the insight community in general, and seems to be very misleading. Because what seems really critical is that in the beginning, there is going to be immense pressure to act, and it isn’t going to be a blanket dismissal that would prevent that action, as much as it is the choice to go the way of virtue and restraint, not in the direction of acting out. A person needs to have reasons for their practice and dismissal with the attitude of equanimity, like you say, is mechanical, and the person merely has to try to forget about that pressure in order to be practicing rightly. But as you say, you have to restrain because you don’t yet have equanimity, which presents the opportunity for an experience free from varying degrees of unwholesome conduct. From there a person can start to recognize the benefits of being without that misconduct and can build samadhi further within that composure.

Like I said, I think there’s been a lot of consolidation of instruction and language, which seems to have created entire trends of method meditation around this notion of “be equanimous”, but it is good to hear from you that that is not even a recommendation. This certainly doesn’t clear up many of the other confusing things we hear from the Goenka community, but it is encouraging to know that restraint and contemplation are valued and not some method of just denying the meaning of a sensation.

Feel free to correct anything I may have assumed.
Restraint and contemplation is definitely valued in the Goenka approach.

In the Goenka style of practice, there is really no dismissing and running away from pain, pleasure, and neutrality, as that is the anchor of it's meditation technique. It's practitioners are certainly familiar with enduring the provocation to act, one of the ways being through it's emphasis on aditthana sittings where the meditator makes a resolve to endure the urge to move during meditation because of painful sensations, of course within the sensibility of not causing injury. This directly relates to the restrain in bodily actions whenever the urge to act out of gratification.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

skandha wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 2:12 am It's practitioners are certainly familiar with enduring the provocation to act, one of the ways being through it's emphasis on aditthana sittings where the meditator makes a resolve to endure the urge to move during meditation because of painful sensations, of course within the sensibility of not causing injury. This directly relates to the restrain in bodily actions whenever the urge to act out of gratification.
sunnat wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 1:36 am
Does this apply to the lifestyle overall, not just when sitting? There’s going to be pressure to act unwholesomely throughout the day.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:27 pm
skandha wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 2:12 am It's practitioners are certainly familiar with enduring the provocation to act, one of the ways being through it's emphasis on aditthana sittings where the meditator makes a resolve to endure the urge to move during meditation because of painful sensations, of course within the sensibility of not causing injury. This directly relates to the restrain in bodily actions whenever the urge to act out of gratification.
sunnat wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 1:36 am
Does this apply to the lifestyle overall, not just when sitting? There’s going to be pressure to act unwholesomely throughout the day.
In the Goenka approach, yes, the restrain to act unwholesomely is applied in lifestyle overall. Goenka repeatedly encourages the restrain outside of sittings and he often describes this as the "yardstick to measure ones progress".
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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Post by sunnat »

This Aditthana is tempered with instructions that if it becomes necessary to move, then move slowly while continually maintaining mindfulness. ‘Continuity of practice is the secret of success’ - and because the training is to develop awareness of the continually changing present, as it is, moment to moment, it means a continuous (equanimous) awareness of anicca - (satipatthana > atapi sampajano satima) as a result the underlying tendency to remain ignorant starts to pass and there is wisdom.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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skandha wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 9:18 pm
SDC wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:27 pm
skandha wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 2:12 am It's practitioners are certainly familiar with enduring the provocation to act, one of the ways being through it's emphasis on aditthana sittings where the meditator makes a resolve to endure the urge to move during meditation because of painful sensations, of course within the sensibility of not causing injury. This directly relates to the restrain in bodily actions whenever the urge to act out of gratification.
sunnat wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 1:36 am
Does this apply to the lifestyle overall, not just when sitting? There’s going to be pressure to act unwholesomely throughout the day.
In the Goenka approach, yes, the restrain to act unwholesomely is applied in lifestyle overall. Goenka repeatedly encourages the restrain outside of sittings and he often describes this as the "yardstick to measure ones progress".
Aren’t the more coarse and pressing offerings of unwholesome behavior happening off the cushion in our everyday lives? What I’m getting at is, doesn’t a person become more resilient on account of restraining unwholesome conduct throughout the day as opposed to resisting the pressure of a sense impression while sitting? Isn’t the cushion a rather insulated environment where the likelihood of unwholesome behavior of body and speech are minimal? Out of curiosity, is the Goenka method an attempt to streamline the gradual training in that you go right at the method of resisting sense impression and that development would circumvent the necessity of developing restraint in body and speech? Meaning body and speech automatically fall in line on account of the mental effort on the cushion?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:02 pm
skandha wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 9:18 pm
SDC wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:27 pm



Does this apply to the lifestyle overall, not just when sitting? There’s going to be pressure to act unwholesomely throughout the day.
In the Goenka approach, yes, the restrain to act unwholesomely is applied in lifestyle overall. Goenka repeatedly encourages the restrain outside of sittings and he often describes this as the "yardstick to measure ones progress".
Aren’t the more coarse and pressing offerings of unwholesome behavior happening off the cushion in our everyday lives? What I’m getting at is, doesn’t a person become more resilient on account of restraining unwholesome conduct throughout the day as opposed to resisting the pressure of a sense impression while sitting? Isn’t the cushion a rather insulated environment where the likelihood of unwholesome behavior of body and speech are minimal? Out of curiosity, is the Goenka method an attempt to streamline the gradual training in that you go right at the method of resisting sense impression and that development would circumvent the necessity of developing restraint in body and speech? Meaning body and speech automatically fall in line on account of the mental effort on the cushion?
Just as how it's described in the suttas, the sitting practice is just one mode of practice. Sure there are a lot more scenarios to deal with outside of the sitting but the same attitude of restrain is maintained. Sila is an essential part of the training, the basic 8 or 5 precepts are followed. Sila, samadhi, panna, the whole 8 fold path, all are emphasised in Goenka's discourses, pretty standard Buddhist methodology. Even faith is emphasised in the Goenka method just like standard Buddhism, taking the triple refugee is part of the practice. Effort on the cushion is supposed to help in the practice outside the cushion, and vice versa.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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