Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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SDC
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by SDC »

skandha wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 1:24 pm Just as how it's described in the suttas, the sitting practice is just one mode of practice. Sure there are a lot more scenarios to deal with outside of the sitting but the same attitude of restrain is maintained. Sila is an essential part of the training, the basic 8 or 5 precepts are followed. Sila, samadhi, panna, the whole 8 fold path, all are emphasised in Goenka's discourses, pretty standard Buddhist methodology. Even faith is emphasised in the Goenka method just like standard Buddhism, taking the triple refugee is part of the practice. Effort on the cushion is supposed to help in the practice outside the cushion, and vice versa.
Thanks for your continued interest in this discussion. I guess what I’m hovering around is, if a person is perfectly restrained on the cushion, but totally unbridled during the regular day to day, it would seem the sittings aren’t doing much for them. But I don’t think it would be totally accurate to say that the sitting practice is ineffective as much as it is that they aren’t making any effort to change their lifestyle. Because it really is those day to day acts that are the true comfort, the true bind to sensuality, and what you can withstand during a sitting session may not apply to what you are doing everyday to maintain greed, hate and delusion.

Again, this is not necessarily a gripe with Goenka but with the “formal sitting” proponents in general. I think it does people a great disservice to be put under the impression that sitting efforts will automatically translate into their day to lives, as the opposite seems to be the case. Faith and effort are one’s reasons for saying no and bringing their behavior and mind together away from what is wholesome, which is to say that the only thing that will prevent the pressure from provoking you to act is to become skilled at enduring it without acting out. What the formal sitting proponents have done is constantly reinforcing the idea that meditation undermines the tendency to act unwholesomely, and that seems to be a bypass of the responsibility. The suttas are quite clear on the matter.

What I think has happened over the last few decades of public discourse about meditation is the curse of “it goes without saying” that one must be virtuous first, but it is now at the point where it is simply not even discussed. Bearing in mind:
AN 11.1 wrote: Iti kho, ānanda, kusalāni sīlāni avippaṭisāratthāni avippaṭisārānisaṁsāni, avippaṭisāro pāmojjattho pāmojjānisaṁso, pāmojjaṁ pītatthaṁ pītānisaṁsaṁ, pīti passaddhatthā passaddhānisaṁsā, passaddhi sukhatthā sukhānisaṁsā, sukhaṁ samādhatthaṁ samādhānisaṁsaṁ

“Thus, Ānanda, the purpose and benefit of wholesome virtuous behavior is non-regret; the purpose and benefit of non-regret is joy; the purpose and benefit of joy is rapture; the purpose and benefit of rapture is tranquility; the purpose and benefit of tranquility is pleasure; the purpose and benefit of pleasure is concentration…”
…there is no meditation without a virtuous lifestyle where that non-regret can accumulate. That can only be done be repeated avoidance of unwholesome conduct.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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SDC wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:02 pm
…there is no meditation without a virtuous lifestyle where that non-regret can accumulate. That can only be done be repeated avoidance of unwholesome conduct.
I like the idea of the accumulation of non-regret. :anjali:
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:44 pm
SDC wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:02 pm
…there is no meditation without a virtuous lifestyle where that non-regret can accumulate. That can only be done be repeated avoidance of unwholesome conduct.
I like the idea of the accumulation of non-regret. :anjali:
Yes, that is why sila is occasionally referred to as an aggregate, as it is something that heaps up. That non-regret would build upon it in the same way, and the principle would carry through to the extent of samadhi and jhana.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by skandha »

SDC wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:02 pm Again, this is not necessarily a gripe with Goenka but with the “formal sitting” proponents in general. I think it does people a great disservice to be put under the impression that sitting efforts will automatically translate into their day to lives, as the opposite seems to be the case.
Almost all the popular "formal sitting" traditions that I know of, emphasises sila as the foundation.

From one of the discourses of Goenka, "So sīla is maintained perfectly. The work of learning the technique begins on this foundation of perfect sīla. If the student works as instructed, progress is certain. But if the foundation of sīla is missing, the student will not progress.".
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
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Post by sunnat »

One does what one does.

Every moment that one meditates is a moment when one is not killing, stealing, engaging in wrong speech, having sex or taking intoxicants. As sensations arise, underlying tendencies are gradually replaced by the middle path inclination of equanimity. So, when one is not formally meditating, gradually the new habit acquired while meditating rises to the fore. How quickly this march towards stream entry and beyond depends on past kammas of each individual.

Goenkaji tells the story of the person who goes to the doctor and gets a prescription. Takes it home and puts it on the altar, lights incense and bows down chanting ‘two pills in the morning, two pills in the morning…’(sutamaya panna in action).

The next person pauses at the doctor and discussed the medicine and goes home and continues to discuss with anyone saying ‘my doctor is best, this is the real medicine’ (cintamaya panna)

The third person actually takes the medicine and experiences the benefit and can truly know (bhavanamaya panna)

Whatever the inclination is, so the kamma and so the sankharas. It’s a gradual >training<. To repeat, in case it was missed, :) training. Old habits are gradually replaced with new ones. If one does this sporadically it may take many lifetimes. If one does this continually it may take 24 hours. How much time one spends developing bhavanamaya panna depends on how much time one spends developing bhavanamaya panna which depends on conditions.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:10 pm
Every moment that one meditates is a moment when one is not killing, stealing, engaging in wrong speech, having sex or taking intoxicants. As sensations arise, underlying tendencies are gradually replaced by the middle path inclination of equanimity.
Hi sunnat,

Your post is exactly what I’m highlighting. Are you saying that what one does while sitting is more conducive to the development of virtue and restraint than simply being restrained and virtuous while not sitting? Isn’t it more challenging to not give in to pressure when one is encountering things that would provoke an unwholesome act? When one is sitting those things are not immediately available.
skandha wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:26 pm Almost all the popular "formal sitting" traditions that I know of, emphasises sila as the foundation.
I have little doubt the teachers do, but practitioners are singing a different tune, and that is really what concerns me.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Post by sunnat »

In-sight meditation is a conscious deep dive into otherwise unknown sensations which are far beyond what is mundanely experienced. Deeply hidden traumas going back to birth and beyond and the early formed tendencies (now also hidden) to suppress them are revealed, to be replaced by awareness and let go of. It happens when the practice is supported by a virtuous living, restraint, silence and continuous practice. ‘Continuity of practice is the secret of success’. The practice is to develop atapi sampajano satima or the continuous equanimous awareness of the continually changing present so that as one dives deeply into a forgotten inner realm one has the habits in place to deal with whatever arises. Mundane life is relatively superficial. By dealing with the deeply submerged tendencies at the level they are formed, mundane life is transformed.

It is to be experienced.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:25 pm In-sight meditation is a conscious deep dive into otherwise unknown sensations which are far beyond what is mundanely experienced. Deeply hidden traumas going back to birth and beyond and the early formed tendencies (now also hidden) to suppress them are revealed, to be replaced by awareness and let go of.
That’s literally the definition of psychoanalysis. What do “deeply hidden traumas” have to do with anything? What I mean is, how does that tie in with the four noble truths?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Post by sunnat »

anusaya kliesas (or, as Goenkaji calls them, ‘hidden volcanoes’) are what drives samsara. Akusala kammas maintain them. Walking the path, insight meditation, is kusala kamma that releases them and hence liberation.

It is to be experienced. One may seemingly endlessly speculate and try to understand intellectually. This scepticism and speculation are themselves anusaya kliesas to be let go of in order to see the causes.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Post by pegembara »

SDC wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 12:01 pm
sunnat wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:10 pm
Every moment that one meditates is a moment when one is not killing, stealing, engaging in wrong speech, having sex or taking intoxicants. As sensations arise, underlying tendencies are gradually replaced by the middle path inclination of equanimity.
Hi sunnat,

Your post is exactly what I’m highlighting. Are you saying that what one does while sitting is more conducive to the development of virtue and restraint than simply being restrained and virtuous while not sitting? Isn’t it more challenging to not give in to pressure when one is encountering things that would provoke an unwholesome act? When one is sitting those things are not immediately available.
skandha wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:26 pm Almost all the popular "formal sitting" traditions that I know of, emphasises sila as the foundation.
I have little doubt the teachers do, but practitioners are singing a different tune, and that is really what concerns me.
How does one know that the anusayas are gone? I would argue that when facing life difficulties rather than in a retreat that they reveal themselves.

Or perhaps life itself becomes less difficult!
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:13 pm anusaya kliesas (or, as Goenkaji calls them, ‘hidden volcanoes’) are what drives samsara. Akusala kammas maintain them. Walking the path, insight meditation, is kusala kamma that releases them and hence liberation.
While it is made very clear in the suttas that unwholesome action maintains impurity, it is not the impurities themselves that “drive samsara”. The impurity is a result of ignorance, craving, wrong view and so many other foundational factors. The reason I asked about the connection to the four noble truths is it seems you are saying that these hidden traumas are the cause of suffering, which would be totally out of line with any standard definition of the first two noble truths.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Post by sunnat »

Backing up a bit.
True knowledge is the result of practical experience not intellectual book knowledge. Using the intellect to reason things out in the end is a dead end.
If one does not abandon the underlying tendencies of liking pleasant sense impressions, disliking unpleasant ones and ignoring neutral ones, liberation is impossible and one remains wandering in samsara experiencing assorted miserable phenomena.

Again: It is to be experienced.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 9:59 pm Backing up a bit.
True knowledge is the result of practical experience not intellectual book knowledge. Using the intellect to reason things out in the end is a dead end.
If one does not abandon the underlying tendencies of liking pleasant sense impressions, disliking unpleasant ones and ignoring neutral ones, liberation is impossible and one remains wandering in samsara experiencing assorted miserable phenomena.

Again: It is to be experienced.
I understand that this discussion is about experience. Clearly, we are both talking about “the work” and not theoretical knowledge. My contention is that the work of day-in and day-out virtue and sense restraint, to the extent of a lifestyle change, is a prerequisite to the mental work of wearing out the defilements. So, I don’t think there is any further need to repeatedly stress that somehow I’m mistaking this as a theoretical exercise.

And, while you have been adamant about virtue being necessary for insight meditation to work, the technique you are describing can be done by anyone pending they bear down and resist the feeling in regard to the sense impression, thereby avoiding any action. Let’s say someone correctly practices equanimity towards these sense impressions, sitting for four hours each day, would it have any effect if their virtue hasn’t been purified first? What I mean is, say we are talking about some who doesn’t follow the precepts, what benefits would they get from practicing this methods of resisting feeling in regard to sense impressions?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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sunnat wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:25 pm In-sight meditation is a conscious deep dive into otherwise unknown sensations which are far beyond what is mundanely experienced. Deeply hidden traumas going back to birth and beyond and the early formed tendencies (now also hidden) to suppress them are revealed, to be replaced by awareness and let go of.
sunnat wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 9:59 pm True knowledge is the result of practical experience not intellectual book knowledge. Using the intellect to reason things out in the end is a dead end.
If one does not abandon the underlying tendencies of liking pleasant sense impressions, disliking unpleasant ones and ignoring neutral ones, liberation is impossible and one remains wandering in samsara experiencing assorted miserable phenomena.
If practical experience is what's being valued here, I think it's worthwhile to question the practicality of "deep diving" into the "miserable phenomena" in order to abandon the underlying tendencies in regard to them. Practically speaking, when I intend to abandon something, I don't find it helpful to involve myself with it, much less deep dive into it. Rather, I find it far more beneficial to not engage with it, letting whatever traumas and mysteries it might contain remain there, bereft of interest.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
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Post by sunnat »

The ‘deep dive’ (to kamma resultants) is the inevitable, unavoidable, result of sustained awareness of the truth of the breath and feelings. In relation to whatever phenomena arises one maintains atapi sampajano satima.
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