strong belief in … the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
What happenes to an Arahant after death?
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
That appear misapprehensioncappuccino wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:31 pmstrong belief in … the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
No bashing No gossiping
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
- Fundamentals of Buddhism (Four Lectures)Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
That bodily process starting anew in the mother's womb is in no way a continuation of a former bodily process, but merely a result, or effect, caused by selfish craving and clinging to life of the so-called dying individual. Thus one who says that the non-producing of any new life-process is identical with annihilation of a self, should also say that abstention from sexual intercourse is identical with annihilation of a child — which, of course, is absurd.
Here, once more, we may expressly emphasize that without a clear perception of the phenomenality or egolessness (anatta) of all existence, it will be impossible to obtain a real understanding of the Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana. This teaching of anatta is in fact the only characteristic Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire teaching stands or falls.
by Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am- Fundamentals of Buddhism (Four Lectures)Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
That bodily process starting anew in the mother's womb is in no way a continuation of a former bodily process, but merely a result, or effect, caused by selfish craving and clinging to life of the so-called dying individual. Thus one who says that the non-producing of any new life-process is identical with annihilation of a self, should also say that abstention from sexual intercourse is identical with annihilation of a child — which, of course, is absurd.
Here, once more, we may expressly emphasize that without a clear perception of the phenomenality or egolessness (anatta) of all existence, it will be impossible to obtain a real understanding of the Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana. This teaching of anatta is in fact the only characteristic Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire teaching stands or falls.
by Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera
Nyanatiloka_Maha_Thera.jpg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
Self view is the source of no self view
No self view is the view of annihilation
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
One may try to argue that "Self" is the teaching of Buddha since the Arahants still use "I", "My", "We", etc. But it is not.
And this perfectly shows the difference between Sammuti (Paññatti) concept and Paramattha concept. Though the words "ourselves, yourself, myself" are used for speech, none of these can be served as verification for Sakkāyadiṭṭhi theory.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el414.htmlWOULD AN ARAHANT SAY "I" OR "MINE"?
Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:
"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"
This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.
The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:
"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."
The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:
"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)
And this perfectly shows the difference between Sammuti (Paññatti) concept and Paramattha concept. Though the words "ourselves, yourself, myself" are used for speech, none of these can be served as verification for Sakkāyadiṭṭhi theory.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 amNow this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
It’s only annihilation if you think there is a self to be annihilated to begin with.alicem wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pmThis seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 amNow this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
The act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.alicem wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pmThis seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.Ontheway wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 amNow this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
That isn't the main reason it's bad and for there to be an act of killing there has to be a person to be killed.Ontheway wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:45 amThe act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.alicem wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pmThis seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
The "person" is just a conventional expression. In ultimate expression or in reality, it is just Pancakhandha.alicem wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 3:23 amThat isn't the main reason it's bad and for there to be an act of killing there has to be a person to be killed.Ontheway wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:45 amThe act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.alicem wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pm
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
But it is the act of killing (brought by intention aka cetana) associated with greed, hatred, and delusion that was deemed immoral and unwholesome.
So regardless of what we are talking (be it conventional "person" or ultimate expression "Pancakhandha"), committing a murder or an act of killing is unwholesome and it is a bad Kamma. And bad Vipaka (such as facing misfortunes, death sentence, violent death, deadly disease, even reborn in Hell, etc.) is expected.
The Japanese war criminals taken up the view of action ineffectiveness (Akiriyavada). That's why they think there will be no consequence committing massacres and all sorts of evil deeds.
Akiriyavada
For they distorted the real meaning of Anatta taught by the Buddha that was preserved perfectly in Theravāda.In acting or getting others to act, in mutilating or getting others to mutilate, in torturing or getting others to torture, in inflicting sorrow or in getting others to inflict sorrow, in tormenting or getting others to torment, in intimidating or getting others to intimidate, in taking life, taking what is not given, breaking into houses, plundering wealth, committing burglary, ambushing highways, committing adultery, speaking falsehood — one does no evil. If with a razor-edged disk one were to turn all the living beings on this earth to a single heap of flesh, a single pile of flesh, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the right bank of the Ganges, killing and getting others to kill, mutilating and getting others to mutilate, torturing and getting others to torture, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the left bank of the Ganges, giving and getting others to give, making sacrifices and getting others to make sacrifices, there would be no merit from that cause, no coming of merit. Through generosity, self-control, restraint, and truthful speech there is no merit from that cause, no coming of merit.'
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
still Annihilationism
Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
“If saying it would only make it so” Grand Moff Tarkin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?
all exp cease..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...