What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by cappuccino »

asahi wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:21 pm Define faith
strong belief in … the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:31 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:21 pm Define faith
strong belief in … the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
That appear misapprehension
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.

That bodily process starting anew in the mother's womb is in no way a continuation of a former bodily process, but merely a result, or effect, caused by selfish craving and clinging to life of the so-called dying individual. Thus one who says that the non-producing of any new life-process is identical with annihilation of a self, should also say that abstention from sexual intercourse is identical with annihilation of a child — which, of course, is absurd.

Here, once more, we may expressly emphasize that without a clear perception of the phenomenality or egolessness (anatta) of all existence, it will be impossible to obtain a real understanding of the Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana. This teaching of anatta is in fact the only characteristic Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire teaching stands or falls.
- Fundamentals of Buddhism (Four Lectures)
by Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera
Nyanatiloka_Maha_Thera.jpg
:anjali:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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Ontheway wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am
Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.

That bodily process starting anew in the mother's womb is in no way a continuation of a former bodily process, but merely a result, or effect, caused by selfish craving and clinging to life of the so-called dying individual. Thus one who says that the non-producing of any new life-process is identical with annihilation of a self, should also say that abstention from sexual intercourse is identical with annihilation of a child — which, of course, is absurd.

Here, once more, we may expressly emphasize that without a clear perception of the phenomenality or egolessness (anatta) of all existence, it will be impossible to obtain a real understanding of the Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana. This teaching of anatta is in fact the only characteristic Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire teaching stands or falls.
- Fundamentals of Buddhism (Four Lectures)
by Venerable Nyanatiloka Mahathera

Nyanatiloka_Maha_Thera.jpg :anjali:
:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:37 pm How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found?

Nyanatiloka Maha Thera
Self view is the source of no self view


No self view is the view of annihilation
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ontheway »

One may try to argue that "Self" is the teaching of Buddha since the Arahants still use "I", "My", "We", etc. But it is not.
WOULD AN ARAHANT SAY "I" OR "MINE"?
Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:

"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"


This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.

The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:

"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."


The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:

"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."
(KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el414.html

And this perfectly shows the difference between Sammuti (Paññatti) concept and Paramattha concept. Though the words "ourselves, yourself, myself" are used for speech, none of these can be served as verification for Sakkāyadiṭṭhi theory.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
alicem
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by alicem »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am
Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ceisiwr »

alicem wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am
Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
It’s only annihilation if you think there is a self to be annihilated to begin with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ontheway »

alicem wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am
Now this fact — that after the death of the Holy One, the Arahant, this physico-mental life-process no longer continues — is erroneously believed by many to be identical with annihilation of self, annihilation of a real being, and it is therefore maintained that the goal of Buddhism is simply annihilation. Against such a misleading statement one must enter an emphatic protest. How is it ever possible to speak of the annihilation of a self, or soul, or ego, where no such thing is to be found? We have seen that in reality there does not exist any ego-entity, or soul, and therefore also no "transmigration" of such a thing into a new mother's womb.
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
The act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
alicem
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by alicem »

Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:45 am
alicem wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:40 am
This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
The act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.
That isn't the main reason it's bad and for there to be an act of killing there has to be a person to be killed.
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ontheway »

alicem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:23 am
Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:45 am
alicem wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:08 pm

This seems intentionally rather obtuse on the part of Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera. One could just as easily justify suicide or murder on the grounds that "there's no self to be killed" (which indeed some Japanese war criminals did) but the suttas make clear that the life-process is still responsible for kamma and has some personal identity. for it to be utterly extinguished would be an annihilation in any sense of the word. I don't fully understand why people who embrace this kind of dreary oblivion but insist on the word jugglery.
The act of killing, which is associated with greed, hatred and delusion, is unwholesome and it generates bad kamma.
That isn't the main reason it's bad and for there to be an act of killing there has to be a person to be killed.
The "person" is just a conventional expression. In ultimate expression or in reality, it is just Pancakhandha.

But it is the act of killing (brought by intention aka cetana) associated with greed, hatred, and delusion that was deemed immoral and unwholesome.

So regardless of what we are talking (be it conventional "person" or ultimate expression "Pancakhandha"), committing a murder or an act of killing is unwholesome and it is a bad Kamma. And bad Vipaka (such as facing misfortunes, death sentence, violent death, deadly disease, even reborn in Hell, etc.) is expected.

The Japanese war criminals taken up the view of action ineffectiveness (Akiriyavada). That's why they think there will be no consequence committing massacres and all sorts of evil deeds.

Akiriyavada
In acting or getting others to act, in mutilating or getting others to mutilate, in torturing or getting others to torture, in inflicting sorrow or in getting others to inflict sorrow, in tormenting or getting others to torment, in intimidating or getting others to intimidate, in taking life, taking what is not given, breaking into houses, plundering wealth, committing burglary, ambushing highways, committing adultery, speaking falsehood — one does no evil. If with a razor-edged disk one were to turn all the living beings on this earth to a single heap of flesh, a single pile of flesh, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the right bank of the Ganges, killing and getting others to kill, mutilating and getting others to mutilate, torturing and getting others to torture, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the left bank of the Ganges, giving and getting others to give, making sacrifices and getting others to make sacrifices, there would be no merit from that cause, no coming of merit. Through generosity, self-control, restraint, and truthful speech there is no merit from that cause, no coming of merit.'
For they distorted the real meaning of Anatta taught by the Buddha that was preserved perfectly in Theravāda.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:23 pm It’s only annihilation if you think there is a self to be annihilated to begin with.
still Annihilationism
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:23 pm It’s only annihilation if you think there is a self to be annihilated to begin with.
still Annihilationism
“If saying it would only make it so” Grand Moff Tarkin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:10 am Grand Moff Tarkin
He was an atheist
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Re: What happenes to an Arahant after death?

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all exp cease..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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