Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am
Dear robertk; Why would you advice Brokenbones to read material that deviates from Buddha's teaching?
:
I do not think that the Abhidhammattha-sangaha deviates from Buddha's teaching.
My reason for suggesting it to brokenbones is that it can be read easily and is, in my opinion, an excellent summary of the Abhidhamma, and so is a convenient entry to studying the Abhidhamma in more depth.

I would assert though that Abhidhamma is best studied directly. A glimpse of the nature of the present moment would show its value and that its whole substance breaks down the compact and gradually aids in comprehending the conditionality of every element.
BrokenBones
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi Robert

I looked up the Abhidhammattha-sangaha on wiki 🤣 don't laugh.

According to this bastion of truth it states that it was written sometime between the 8th & 12th century and is so dense, several commentaries on this commentary have been required.


I can't say it looks like making my reading list.


I personally think that certain people can get something wholesome out of the Abhidhamma. Whether that wholesomeness is what the Buddha taught is another matter.

I have the suttas and without being disrespectful to you personally, because I always find your patience with sarcastic naysayers like me quite admirable... why would I give burgers (Abhidhamma) a chance when steak is so plentiful (Suttas).
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by justindesilva »

robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:41 am
Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am
Dear robertk; Why would you advice Brokenbones to read material that deviates from Buddha's teaching?
:
I do not think that the Abhidhammattha-sangaha deviates from Buddha's teaching.
My reason for suggesting it to brokenbones is that it can be read easily and is, in my opinion, an excellent summary of the Abhidhamma, and so is a convenient entry to studying the Abhidhamma in more depth.

I would assert though that Abhidhamma is best studied directly. A glimpse of the nature of the present moment would show its value and that its whole substance breaks down the compact and gradually aids in comprehending the conditionality of every element.
When I wanted to learn buddha darma as early as 1970s (as a youth) I went to a learned bikku in sri lanka and requested to teach me damma . He advised me to learn pali language as I shall have to read through Atuva and tika to dwell deep in to sutta clarification and I was disappointed . I later fortunately found Guide through Abhidhamma pitaka written by Nyanathiloka maha thero , who translated Abidamma in to english very systematically from abidamma pitaka and references . It contained details of abidamma which a lay person needs and even useful at higher levels . What I am trying to drive at is that a learned thero like Thanissaro could understand all suttas and atuva, tika in pali with his level and could make an insight unlike us .
It also explains Paticca samuppada seperately , most valuable to any an many , Diads triads with citta cetasika and meditations . Sadhu Sadhu .!
Ontheway
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ontheway »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:47 am
robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:41 am
Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am
Dear robertk; Why would you advice Brokenbones to read material that deviates from Buddha's teaching?
:
I do not think that the Abhidhammattha-sangaha deviates from Buddha's teaching.
My reason for suggesting it to brokenbones is that it can be read easily and is, in my opinion, an excellent summary of the Abhidhamma, and so is a convenient entry to studying the Abhidhamma in more depth.

I would assert though that Abhidhamma is best studied directly. A glimpse of the nature of the present moment would show its value and that its whole substance breaks down the compact and gradually aids in comprehending the conditionality of every element.
When I wanted to learn buddha darma as early as 1970s (as a youth) I went to a learned bikku in sri lanka and requested to teach me damma . He advised me to learn pali language as I shall have to read through Atuva and tika to dwell deep in to sutta clarification and I was disappointed . I later fortunately found Guide through Abhidhamma pitaka written by Nyanathiloka maha thero , who translated Abidamma in to english very systematically from abidamma pitaka and references . It contained details of abidamma which a lay person needs and even useful at higher levels . What I am trying to drive at is that a learned thero like Thanissaro could understand all suttas and atuva, tika in pali with his level and could make an insight unlike us .
It also explains Paticca samuppada seperately , most valuable to any an many , Diads triads with citta cetasika and meditations . Sadhu Sadhu .!
I suggest we should also memorise the info on 89 cittas, 52 Cetasikas, and 28 rupas. And also understand how Cetasikas linked to Cittas. From this, we can fully understand what Five Aggregates really are and possible to dispel Sakkaya Ditthi.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:41 am
Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am
Dear robertk; Why would you advice Brokenbones to read material that deviates from Buddha's teaching?
:
I do not think that the Abhidhammattha-sangaha deviates from Buddha's teaching.
My reason for suggesting it to brokenbones is that it can be read easily and is, in my opinion, an excellent summary of the Abhidhamma, and so is a convenient entry to studying the Abhidhamma in more depth.

I would assert though that Abhidhamma is best studied directly. A glimpse of the nature of the present moment would show its value and that its whole substance breaks down the compact and gradually aids in comprehending the conditionality of every element.
Abhidhammattha Sangaha is good. But I don't really go through it completely. I prefer Visuddhimagga's presentation style.

I am still waiting for the full translation of Abhidhamma vatara ... I think it is a viable handbook for studying Abhidhamma too.

For those who commented that Abhidhamma is deviating from Buddhasasana... What they said is false. They are creating a nonexistent dividing line between Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka. What they did is indirectly insulting the Third Arahant Council. And saying that is of great kammic consequence. Much demerits been accumulated by these people. Unless they abandon their thought on that, if not, their path is blocked.

Personally, I strongly recommend to study Abhidhamma, try to understand how six consciousnesses were further explained in terms of 89 consciousnesses, then Sankhara that can be understood as 52 Cetasikas, and then Rupa that is made of two groups: 4 Great Elements & Derived materialities, in total 28 types. Knowing & understanding these info, Sakkaya Ditthi can be abandoned.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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retrofuturist
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:58 amWhat they did is indirectly insulting the Third Arahant Council. And saying that is of great kammic consequence. Much demerits been accumulated by these people. Unless they abandon their thought on that, if not, their path is blocked.
Is this comment based on anything, or merely an idle threat of kammic retribution?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
BrokenBones
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:43 am Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:58 amWhat they did is indirectly insulting the Third Arahant Council. And saying that is of great kammic consequence. Much demerits been accumulated by these people. Unless they abandon their thought on that, if not, their path is blocked.
Is this comment based on anything, or merely an idle threat of kammic retribution?

Metta,
Paul. :)
It's pretty much standard drivel from 'some' Abhidhammists who would seem to prefer the suttas never existed.

The depth of delusion in some can paper over cracks as wide as the Grand Canyon.

As far as I see it, any work that claims to be necessary to understand the Buddha's teachings is beyond naughty 👿

I will gladly listen to teachings that help me understand the Dhamma but if they start insinuating that their explanations are absolutely necessary to understand the Buddha's peerless teachings then I would run for the hills.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

The fact that there are several different 'abhidhammas' in different early Buddhist schools, and that they each have their own unique analysis and theoretical frameworks tells you all you need to know about their authenticity.

I commend Venerable Thanissaro on keeping to the true Doctrine and Discipline of the Tathagata, without corruption.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 am The fact that there are several different 'abhidhammas' in different early Buddhist schools, and that they each have their own unique analysis and theoretical frameworks tells you all you need to know about their authenticity.

I commend Venerable Thanissaro on keeping to the true Doctrine and Discipline of the Tathagata, without corruption.
Whilst that is true they also share things in common. Some of the Abhidhamma texts align, and it looks like all of the early schools accepted things like sabhava, two truth and even momentariness. On authenticity, does something being later mean it’s inauthentic?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:07 am
I will gladly listen to teachings that help me understand the Dhamma but if they start insinuating that their explanations are absolutely necessary to understand the Buddha's peerless teachings then I would run for the hills.
A lot of people do that be they Abhidhamma enthusiasts or not. Frank, for example.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:41 am
According to this bastion of truth it states that it was written sometime between the 8th & 12th century and is so dense, several commentaries on this commentary have been required.
It’s quite a common style to the Indian sub-continent, to have a terse body of text that requires commentary to explain it. The Yoga Sutras of Patañjali are another example. Makes you think, is that the style the suttas were originally in too?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote
A glimpse of the nature of the present moment would show its value
and that its whole substance breaks down the compact and gradually aids in comprehending
the conditionality of every element.
Dear robertk: As our BB noted, I too admire your patience, whatever the labels are "Abhidhamma" or "sutta" your convictions help you become the person you are, gentle, kind, and very professional, so if abhidhamma enabled you this level of spiritual development, then that is to be admired. Some sutta followers may not have this level of sophistication, where Dhamma is concerned. So, nothing is ever cut and dry.
To get back to the issue here, you are referring to the
glimpse of the nature of the present moment
Why is the present moment important in a soteriological sense? The true aspirant
(whether lay or robed) should s/he not observe how suffering arises in the present moment? if s/he wants to be free from suffering?
Can you explain how suffering arises in a simple manner, (let us imagine the words sutta and abhidhamma do not exist) just based on Paticca samuppada, Buddha's fundamental teaching.
You also wrote
comprehending the conditionality of every element.
What is conditionality? Does it not mean how consciousness arises (every moment) based on a sense organ coming into contact with a sense object? There are 6 of these, and in Chinese agama suttas they call these six realms. And I truly believe these are the only realms we experience.
In one of these realms, name and form come together creating a new consciousnes every second.
Understanding this is crucial to the serious practitioner.
You wrote
conditionality of every element.
How do you understand the word element in the context of dependent Origination?
The earliest suttas present it as only eye consciousness, ear consciousness, smell consciousness, taste consciousness, touch consciousness, and consciounesss that arises due to thought or mental activity.
Does the abhidhamma understanding of element differ from this?
If so how does it improve an understanding of Paticca samuppada?
For Buddha form of name and form, referred to images arising in the mind due to craving as reported in the Fire sermon.
When sutta writers came under influence of abhidhamma, they called that form, something physical. (Dhammasangani to be safe, called form physical and mental) I think this is the biggest confusion that abhidhamma created for those who are bent on being free of suffering. For those who want to live wholesome lives without harming others Abhidhamma is not a problem.
With love :candle:
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:41 am Hi Robert

I looked up the Abhidhammattha-sangaha on wiki 🤣 don't laugh.

According to this bastion of truth it states that it was written sometime between the 8th & 12th century and is so dense, several commentaries on this commentary have been required.
you mean this is incredibly difficult for you?
By narada Mahathera wrote:Citta, ceta, cittuppāda, nāma, mana, viññāna are all used as synonymous terms in
Abhidhamma. Hence from the Abhidhamma standpoint no distinction is made between mind and
consciousness. When the so-called being is divided into its two constituent parts, nāma (mind) is
used. When it is divided into five aggregates (pañcakkhandha), viññāna is used. The term citta is
invariably employed while referring to different classes of consciousness. In isolated cases, in
the ordinary sense of mind, both terms citta and mana are frequently used.
technically you have this,
wrote:§ 3.
tattha cittam tāva catubbidhara hoti:-
(1.) kāmāvacaram,
(2.) rūpāvacaram
(3.) arūpāvacaram,
(4.) lokuttaram c'ati.
§ 3. Of them, consciousness, first, is fourfold namely:-
(1.) Consciousness pertaining to the Sensuous Sphere,
(2.) Consciousness pertaining to the Form-Sphere,
(3.) Consciousness pertaining to the Formless Sphere, and
(4.) Supra mundane consciousness.
Notes:
and then notes, definitions of terms etc. Sutta are way more difficult if you read them on your own.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm and then notes, definitions of terms etc. Sutta are way more difficult if you read them on your own.
It is difficult because one didn't follow the exact step. This has been said in MN 107 and many others.

One needs to develop the same faculties to have the same knowledges.
MN 107 wrote:...In the same way, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and I am present to encourage them, still some of my disciples, instructed and advised like this, achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, while some of them fail.

What can I do about that, brahmin?
The Realized One is the one who shows the way.”
Actually if there is really the master Abhidhamma please let me know. I have searched up and down, listen to most them. Alas, they don't even understood the basic precepts taught by the Buddha. If they don't understand precepts, how can they understand samadhi/purification of mind. All of this needs samma ditthi as frontrunner first.

But if you do, please let me know the video (english version). I will check it personally. I can spend all my time listening the dhamma, and verify their mind/physical etc.

To dispel abhidhamma is simple. Most of them is repeating the text, no direct personal experience.

Buddha said citta sankhara (make up of citta) is sanna and vedana only. Then, somehow they expand it more.

If you want to see cetasika explanation, there are only 4 sutta. None of them explain confusing and mix definition.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
BrokenBones
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:41 am Hi Robert

I looked up the Abhidhammattha-sangaha on wiki 🤣 don't laugh.

According to this bastion of truth it states that it was written sometime between the 8th & 12th century and is so dense, several commentaries on this commentary have been required.
you mean this is incredibly difficult for you?
By narada Mahathera wrote:Citta, ceta, cittuppāda, nāma, mana, viññāna are all used as synonymous terms in
Abhidhamma. Hence from the Abhidhamma standpoint no distinction is made between mind and
consciousness. When the so-called being is divided into its two constituent parts, nāma (mind) is
used. When it is divided into five aggregates (pañcakkhandha), viññāna is used. The term citta is
invariably employed while referring to different classes of consciousness. In isolated cases, in
the ordinary sense of mind, both terms citta and mana are frequently used.
technically you have this,
wrote:§ 3.
tattha cittam tāva catubbidhara hoti:-
(1.) kāmāvacaram,
(2.) rūpāvacaram
(3.) arūpāvacaram,
(4.) lokuttaram c'ati.
§ 3. Of them, consciousness, first, is fourfold namely:-
(1.) Consciousness pertaining to the Sensuous Sphere,
(2.) Consciousness pertaining to the Form-Sphere,
(3.) Consciousness pertaining to the Formless Sphere, and
(4.) Supra mundane consciousness.
Notes:
and then notes, definitions of terms etc. Sutta are way more difficult if you read them on your own.
Abhidhamma at its best... a lot of words with nothing relevant to say.
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