Hi Mike
I agree that I could not find Seventeen thought moment in the Suttas.
However each limb of Seventeen thought moment can be found in the Suttas.
So understanding Seventeen thought moments is a great way to practice mindfulness.
Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Well, clearly, the Commentaries were developed, at least in part, as a collection of the experience of practitioners, so it would not be surprising that the methods suggested there are effective.SarathW wrote:Hi Mike
I agree that I could not find Seventeen thought moment in the Suttas.
However each limb of Seventeen thought moment can be found in the Suttas.
So understanding Seventeen thought moments is a great way to practice mindfulness.
However, the point I was making is that the Canonical Abhidhamma is very much just a detailed categorization of what appears in the suttas, and when people speak of things that are in the Abhidhamma but not in the suttas, they usually seem to be referring to material from the later Commentaries (such as mind moments), not material from the Abhidhamma.
You can read the Vibhaṅga here: https://suttacentral.net/vb
For example: https://suttacentral.net/en/vb1
The Book of Analysis
1. Analysis Of The Aggregates
1.1. Analysis According To The Discourses
The five aggregates are: The aggregate of form, aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness.
1.1.1. The Aggregate Of Form
Therein what is the aggregate of form? Whatever form is past, future or present, internal or external gross or subtle, inferior or superior, distant or proximate; (taking) these together collectively and briefly, this is called the aggregate of form.
...
(Here Ends) Analysis According To The Discourses
1.2. Analysis According To Abhidhamma
The five aggregates are: The aggregate of form, aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness.
1.2.1. The Aggregate Of Form
Therein what is the aggregate of form? The aggregate of form by way of singlefold division: All form is not root. Is not accompanied by root. Is not associated with root. Is with cause. Is conditioned. Is material. Is mundane. Is the object of the defilements. Is the object of the fetters. Is the object of the ties. ...
Mike
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
I'm just still really dumb....
While staying at Metta Forest monastery, I had to ask Thanissaro, out of confusion...do you study the Abhidharma.
Abbott: No we dont.
Me: Why?
Abbott: Because the Buddha never taught it.
So,
After my stay, I've studied it.Thought about it, and, Thanissaro, has a beautiful pure heart. He just keeps things very original and unmodified. His monastery studies the Vinaya and Suttas only.
While staying at Metta Forest monastery, I had to ask Thanissaro, out of confusion...do you study the Abhidharma.
Abbott: No we dont.
Me: Why?
Abbott: Because the Buddha never taught it.
So,
After my stay, I've studied it.Thought about it, and, Thanissaro, has a beautiful pure heart. He just keeps things very original and unmodified. His monastery studies the Vinaya and Suttas only.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
UnboundMetta wrote: ↑Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:30 am I'm just still really dumb....
While staying at Metta Forest monastery, I had to ask Thanissaro, out of confusion...do you study the Abhidharma.
Abbott: No we dont.
Me: Why?
Abbott: Because the Buddha never taught it.
So,
After my stay, I've studied it.Thought about it, and, Thanissaro, has a beautiful pure heart. He just keeps things very original and unmodified. His monastery studies the Vinaya and Suttas only.
Interesting since in Part II of his book "Wings to Awakening" (2011), "Abhidhamma" is mentioned 4 times.
At one point he states:
To me this would imply that he has read (parts of) the Abhidhamma. Otherwise, how would he know?There is historical support for this interpretation as well. The Vibhanga, an ancient Abhidhamma text, includes only the hindrances and the factors for Awakening in its discussion of this heading.
source: https://web.archive.org/web/20230306145 ... part2.html
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
A Buddhist can (and usually will) pick up abhidhammic ideas without necessarily reading Abhidhamma texts. For example, Thanissaro might have learned about the Vibhanga's treatment of dhammānupassanā from the discussion of this in Bhante Sujato's book, History of Mindfulness.berrywheel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:13 pm To me this would imply that he has read (parts of) the Abhidhamma. Otherwise, how would he know?
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Mumfie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:46 amA Buddhist can (and usually will) pick up abhidhammic ideas without necessarily reading Abhidhamma texts. For example, Thanissaro might have learned about the Vibhanga's treatment of dhammānupassanā from the discussion of this in Bhante Sujato's book, History of Mindfulness.berrywheel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:13 pm To me this would imply that he has read (parts of) the Abhidhamma. Otherwise, how would he know?
Can I safely say that at least 95% of Abhidhamma is found in Suttas?
Not necessarily in the same order but whatever the content in Abhidhamm can be substantiated by Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
You could also say that the entire ingredients for a seven course gourmet meal are 'listed' in a local supermarket... big deal.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:00 amMumfie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:46 amA Buddhist can (and usually will) pick up abhidhammic ideas without necessarily reading Abhidhamma texts. For example, Thanissaro might have learned about the Vibhanga's treatment of dhammānupassanā from the discussion of this in Bhante Sujato's book, History of Mindfulness.berrywheel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:13 pm To me this would imply that he has read (parts of) the Abhidhamma. Otherwise, how would he know?
Can I safely say that at least 95% of Abhidhamma is found in Suttas?
Not necessarily in the same order but whatever the content in Abhidhamm can be substantiated by Sutta.
How are the ingredients prepared and put together?
How is it cooked and presented?
A big list of ingredients is next to useless without instructions; you need a cookbook... the suttas.
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
I don't know what the numerical proportion might be, but certainly it's my impression that those concepts that are exclusive to the Abhidhamma Pitaka are greatly outnumbered by those which are held in common with the Sutta Pitaka.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Actually, it is my impression that those concepts that are exclusive to the Abhidhamma Pitaka are not outnumbered by those which are held in common with the Sutta Pitaka.
Sorry I have to disagree with you.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Agree.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:09 amYou could also say that the entire ingredients for a seven course gourmet meal are 'listed' in a local supermarket... big deal.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:00 amMumfie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:46 am
A Buddhist can (and usually will) pick up abhidhammic ideas without necessarily reading Abhidhamma texts. For example, Thanissaro might have learned about the Vibhanga's treatment of dhammānupassanā from the discussion of this in Bhante Sujato's book, History of Mindfulness.
Can I safely say that at least 95% of Abhidhamma is found in Suttas?
Not necessarily in the same order but whatever the content in Abhidhamm can be substantiated by Sutta.
How are the ingredients prepared and put together?
How is it cooked and presented?
A big list of ingredients is next to useless without instructions; you need a cookbook... the suttas.
Abhidhamm is not a menu.
It is a description of the ingredients.
Unless you know the qualities of your ingredients you can't be a good cook.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Really? But if that's your impression, then surely your earlier question should have been phrased:
"Can I safely say that at least 95% of Abhidhamma is not found in Suttas?"
To which I would I have replied:
No, you can't safely say that. The concepts found exclusively in the Abhidhamma Pitaka probably don't number more than a couple of dozen.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
I'd love to know what these concepts are. The impression I get is that very few have actually read the Abhidhamma because it's so dense and unintelligible. They read the commentaries of the Abhidhamma, of which I have read a little and made my decision.
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Agree.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am I'd love to know what these concepts are. The impression I get is that very few have actually read the Abhidhamma because it's so dense and unintelligible. They read the commentaries of the Abhidhamma, of which I have read a little and made my decision.
Bhikkhu Bodhi said that reading Abhidhamma is like eating grass.
You have to spend many years reading and thinking to understand what it is.
However it is not good enough reason to reject it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Why we should care another person if he/she read Abhidhamma or not?
I think the OP should ask him/herself if he/she wants to read Abhidhamma scriptures or not.
I think the OP should ask him/herself if he/she wants to read Abhidhamma scriptures or not.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false