- Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā [“relative truth”], whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā ["highest truth"].
One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-kathā.
One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā.
To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā.
There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā.
It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55
Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
The interesting thing about the commentaries is their richness of points of view. Contrary to what was expressed above we find this in the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya:
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Thanks Tilt
Are Suttas (not including Abhidhamma) written in both paramattha-kathā and Sammuthi-katha?
Are Suttas (not including Abhidhamma) written in both paramattha-kathā and Sammuthi-katha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings Sarath,
If this perspective is of interest to you, you may wish to engage in the structured "Review of Ven. Ñānavīra's "Notes on Dhamma"" topic, which is currently examining Nanavira Thera's treatment of Paramattha Sacca - click here to join the conversation at that point.
Metta,
Retro.
I believe Nanavira Thera would suggest that the distinction is fallacious. See: PARAMATTHA SACCASarathW wrote:Are Suttas (not including Abhidhamma) written in both paramattha-kathā and Sammuthi-katha?
If this perspective is of interest to you, you may wish to engage in the structured "Review of Ven. Ñānavīra's "Notes on Dhamma"" topic, which is currently examining Nanavira Thera's treatment of Paramattha Sacca - click here to join the conversation at that point.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
There are several different ways people approach the Abhidhamma. The Canonical Theravada texts have the Abhidhamma taught to the Buddha's mother in Tusita heaven, then repeated to Sariputta. Academic scholarship suggests that the Abhidhamma texts are somewhat newer than most of the Sutta texts, though as Dave indicates, there are cases where the Abhidhamma terminology seems to have been back-filled into the Suttas.
For example, Google this:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site: ... 2mn+117%22
In the academic approach the Canonical Abhidhamma is seen as an effort to systematize the information in the suttas, which is distributed somewhat randomly around the Nikayas. Note that the Canonical Abhidhamma doesn't have many elements of the later development (billions of mind states per second, etc), but is mostly classifications of relations and causes, derived from the suttas.
If one doesn't use the systematization worked out in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, one has to make some other sort of systematisation. For example, the scheme that Bhikkhu Bodhi used for the Majjhima Nikaya, and developed for In the Buddha's Words, and the Anguttara Nikaya. See the threads here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewforum.php?f=25. This scheme is, however, quite traditional.
Others, such as Thanissaro or Nanavira, presumably have/had their own way of collating and making sense of the suttas. It's generally not possible to make much sense out of any one sutta without reference to several others. Care needs to be taken with the numerous suttas that make statements like: "there are these N such-and-suchs". Clearly most of them should NOT be read as "there are ONLY these N such-and-suchs", since there are usually several others talk about "These M such-and-suchs".
I can't recall where I heard/read it, but I did come across the idea that the Abhidhamma is extremely complex because it had to make sense out of the entire collection of suttas. According to this theory, many modern interpretations are simpler because they discard some of the suttas (e.g. the more mythological ones). This is an interesting idea.
In summary, some framework is required to systematize the suttas. The Abhidhamma is one that was worked out over 2000 years ago, so deserves to at least be considered.
Mike
For example, Google this:
Code: Select all
site:http://dhammawheel.com/ "mn 117"
In the academic approach the Canonical Abhidhamma is seen as an effort to systematize the information in the suttas, which is distributed somewhat randomly around the Nikayas. Note that the Canonical Abhidhamma doesn't have many elements of the later development (billions of mind states per second, etc), but is mostly classifications of relations and causes, derived from the suttas.
If one doesn't use the systematization worked out in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, one has to make some other sort of systematisation. For example, the scheme that Bhikkhu Bodhi used for the Majjhima Nikaya, and developed for In the Buddha's Words, and the Anguttara Nikaya. See the threads here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewforum.php?f=25. This scheme is, however, quite traditional.
Others, such as Thanissaro or Nanavira, presumably have/had their own way of collating and making sense of the suttas. It's generally not possible to make much sense out of any one sutta without reference to several others. Care needs to be taken with the numerous suttas that make statements like: "there are these N such-and-suchs". Clearly most of them should NOT be read as "there are ONLY these N such-and-suchs", since there are usually several others talk about "These M such-and-suchs".
I can't recall where I heard/read it, but I did come across the idea that the Abhidhamma is extremely complex because it had to make sense out of the entire collection of suttas. According to this theory, many modern interpretations are simpler because they discard some of the suttas (e.g. the more mythological ones). This is an interesting idea.
In summary, some framework is required to systematize the suttas. The Abhidhamma is one that was worked out over 2000 years ago, so deserves to at least be considered.
Mike
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Yes, Nanavira disagrees with that particular classification.retrofuturist wrote:I believe Nanavira Thera would suggest that the distinction is fallacious. See: PARAMATTHA SACCASarathW wrote:Are Suttas (not including Abhidhamma) written in both paramattha-kathā and Sammuthi-katha?
I'm not sure how strong the paramattha idea is in the Canonical Abhidhamma. I think Nanavira's note points to the Questions of King Milinda era.
Mike
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Let me quote further from the essay: THERAVADA VERSION OF THE TWO TRUTHSSarathW wrote:Thanks Tilt
Are Suttas (not including Abhidhamma) written in both paramattha-kathā and Sammuthi-katha?
Ven. Y. KARUNADASA
Visiting Professor
Centre of Buddhist Studies, University of Hong Kong
(Emeritus Professor, University of Kelaniya, Sri Lanka)
- Another interesting conclusion that to which the foregoing observations lead is that as far
as the Theravada is concerned, the distinction between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca
does not refer to two kinds of truth as such, but to two ways of presenting what is true.
Although they are formally introduced as two truths, they are explained as two modes of
expressing what is true. They do not represent two degrees of truth, of which one is superior
or inferior to the other. Nor do they represent two parallel truths. This explains why the two
terms kathā (speech) and desanā (discourse) are sometimes used when referring to the two
kinds of truth.41 In this respect, too, the distinction made between sammuti and paramattha
exactly corresponds to the distinction drawn in the early scriptures between nītattha and
neyyattha.
This does also provide us with a clear clue as to how we should understand the statement
in the Pali commentaries, that the teachings in the Sutta Piṭaka and the Abhidhamma Piṭaka
correspond respectively to conventional teaching (vohāra- desanā) and absolute teaching
(paramattha-desanā). The Sutta Piṭaka is said to contain teachings mostly based on
conventional terms (vohāra-desanā), because therein the Blessed One, who is skilful in the
use of conventions, has taught the doctrines with a preponderance of conventional terms. In
contrast, the Abhidhamma Piṭaka is said to contain teachings mostly based on paramattha
desanā because therein the Blessed One, who is skilful in the use of absolute terms, has
taught the doctrine with a preponderance of absolute terms.42 This does not mean, as some
are inclined to think, that the teachings in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka represent a higher set of
doctrines. The distinction drawn should be understood in the same way as that between the
two kinds of truth. Understood in that way, it does not, in any way, refer to two kinds of
doctrines of which one kind is higher than the other. All that it does is to bring into focus two
different ways of presenting the same set of doctrines. In the Sutta Piṭaka more use is made of
conventional terms in ordinary parlance, whereas in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka more use is
made of specific, technical terms which directly refer to the ultimate categories of empirical
existence. It is a question pertaining to method and not content. Thus what is intended to
show by the description of the Sutta Piṭaka and the Abhidhamma Piṭaka as sammuti-desanā
and paramattha-desanā respectively is that they represent two different ways of presenting
the same doctrine.- 41 See e.g. AA, Vol. I, p. 54; DA. Vol. I p. 251; Abhvk p. 324
42 Cf. Suttapiṭakam vohārakusalena Bhagavatā vohārabāhullato desitattā vohāradesanā; abhidhammapiṭakaṃ
paramatthakusalena paramatthabāhullato desitattā paramatthadesanā ti vuccati (Dhammasaṅgani Aṭṭthakathā, PTS.
p.32)
- 41 See e.g. AA, Vol. I, p. 54; DA. Vol. I p. 251; Abhvk p. 324
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Retro,retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,
What particular states of confusion do you believe the Expositor is speaking of here?
The one positive lasting learning of my reading of Abhidhamma texts has been that which relates to the mula (roots) of mindstates. Yes, this is found in its completeness in the suttas too (IMO), but as a theme and principle aspect of the Dhamma, it appears to be a more dominant concept in Abhidhammic discourse than in other bodies of work. Teaching on mindstates underpin the teachings of kamma and vipaka and therefore seem valuable in the understanding of the nature of sankhata-dhammas.
Metta,
Retro.
Try reading through the patthana, last book of the Abhidhamma. Much to be learned...
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Thanks Tilt.
My view is Buddha did not teach Abhidhamma.
He incorporated both Pramatta (five aggregate) and Samutti (the human) in to Suttas.
======
See how I have written Pramattha based on my present knowledge. (extract from my article -Being happy without a reason)
============
Look at a rock. Can you tell me what it is made of? This rock is made of many minerals such as iron and it also contains various other substances such as water and air, all combined. Now I am going to grind this rock. What happens to the rock? I have only a handful of sand in my hand. According to Buddhism there is nothing called a ‘rock’. We have given a name to an aggregate of matter. In an empirical sense there is a rock. However, in an absolute sense, there is nothing called a rock. In other words, it is ephemeral. It is interesting to note that crystal, a type of a rock, has the ability to reproduce (grow) itself. Some scientists argue that crystals are the earliest form having the characteristics of life, or are the link between the living (plant, animal, human) and the non-living (matter).
Let us examine the water particles in this sand. According to modern science, we know that water molecules are an aggregate of oxygen and hydrogen atoms. Atoms are an aggregate of neutrons, electrons and protons. It has been suggested that electrons may be an aggregate of various strings or forms of energy, etc.
===========
My view is Buddha did not teach Abhidhamma.
He incorporated both Pramatta (five aggregate) and Samutti (the human) in to Suttas.
======
See how I have written Pramattha based on my present knowledge. (extract from my article -Being happy without a reason)
============
Look at a rock. Can you tell me what it is made of? This rock is made of many minerals such as iron and it also contains various other substances such as water and air, all combined. Now I am going to grind this rock. What happens to the rock? I have only a handful of sand in my hand. According to Buddhism there is nothing called a ‘rock’. We have given a name to an aggregate of matter. In an empirical sense there is a rock. However, in an absolute sense, there is nothing called a rock. In other words, it is ephemeral. It is interesting to note that crystal, a type of a rock, has the ability to reproduce (grow) itself. Some scientists argue that crystals are the earliest form having the characteristics of life, or are the link between the living (plant, animal, human) and the non-living (matter).
Let us examine the water particles in this sand. According to modern science, we know that water molecules are an aggregate of oxygen and hydrogen atoms. Atoms are an aggregate of neutrons, electrons and protons. It has been suggested that electrons may be an aggregate of various strings or forms of energy, etc.
===========
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings Robert,
Metta,
Retro.
Is the actual book itself (i.e. not a commentary of it) available online?robertk wrote:Try reading through the patthana, last book of the Abhidhamma. Much to be learned...
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Here you go. The introduction is good tooretrofuturist wrote:Greetings Robert,
Is the actual book itself (i.e. not a commentary of it) available online?robertk wrote:Try reading through the patthana, last book of the Abhidhamma. Much to be learned...
Metta,
Retro.
http://patthana.net/?page_id=36" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings,
Thank you gentlemen.
Metta,
Retro.
Thank you gentlemen.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
As you can see, opinions are going to vary, but I think it is reasonable to assume that if Ven. Thanissaro thought that studying, and putting into practice, the Abhidhamma was important, and necessary, for awakening, he would have done so, and he would likely recommend it to his students.fivebells wrote:At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
When I first read "A still Forest Pool", this part made me smile:fivebells wrote:At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
The Chicken or the Egg?
During his first visit to England, Ajahn Chah spoke to many Buddhist groups. One evening after a talk he received a question from a dignified English lady who had spent many years studying the complex cybernetics of the mind according to the eighty-nine classes of consciousness in the Buddhist abhidharma psychology texts. Would he please explain certain of the more difficult aspects of this system of psychology to her so she could continue her study?
Dharma teaches us to let go. But at first, we naturally cling to the principles of Dharma. The wise person takes these principles and uses them as tools to discover the essence of our life.
Sensing how caught up she was in intellectual concepts rather than benefiting from practice in her own heart, Ajahn Chah answered her quite directly, ''You, madam, are like one who keeps hens in her yard," he told her, "and goes around picking up the chicken droppings instead of the eggs."
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... 0Teachings
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
I do not consider 89 mental states are as chicken droppings.
I spent lot of time pondering on these categories.
These are very important when you try to understand various mental states.
However I understand that we can't spent all our life reading and analysing the text.
Practice is important.
But if there is a question and answering session like in Dhamma Wheel, we have to answer the question instead of making smart remarks.
He would have said, that investigation is not applicable for the particular Dhamma Session.
I spent lot of time pondering on these categories.
These are very important when you try to understand various mental states.
However I understand that we can't spent all our life reading and analysing the text.
Practice is important.
But if there is a question and answering session like in Dhamma Wheel, we have to answer the question instead of making smart remarks.
He would have said, that investigation is not applicable for the particular Dhamma Session.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”