Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings fivebells,
Whilst mileage may vary, some people would suggest that Thanissaro's non-reading of the Abhidhamma could well be a "positive advantage" to him...
Metta,
Retro.
Did he specify a reason?fivebells wrote:At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
Whilst mileage may vary, some people would suggest that Thanissaro's non-reading of the Abhidhamma could well be a "positive advantage" to him...
See also: The Great Abhidhamma Pitaka Authenticity DebateNanavira Thera wrote:These books of the Pali Canon correctly represent the Buddha's Teaching, and can be regarded as trustworthy throughout. (Vinayapitaka:) Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga; (Suttapitaka:) Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theratherīgāthā. (The Jātaka verses may be authentic, but they do not come within the scope of these Notes.) No other Pali books whatsoever should be taken as authoritative; and ignorance of them (and particularly of the traditional Commentaries) may be counted a positive advantage, as leaving less to be unlearned.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
One problem, however, is that much of the Abhidhamma isn't actually in conflict with the Suttas; it takes the later Commentary to do that, for the most part... but then, I'm no expert.
It is surprising to me to hear that a modern monk is not familiar with it at least to some extent, but since early generations of monks were not, I think it's probably not too big of an issue.
It is surprising to me to hear that a modern monk is not familiar with it at least to some extent, but since early generations of monks were not, I think it's probably not too big of an issue.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings,
If that is so (and I honestly do not know, because much like Thanissaro Bhikkhu I have not read it), then what value does it provide a practitioner over-and-above sutta reading alone? Or phrased another way, how would one argue to Thanissaro Bhikkhu or myself that reading the Abhidhamma Pitaka would actually be a "positive advantage"
Metta,
Retro.
*** Sincere question alert ***daverupa wrote:One problem, however, is that much of the Abhidhamma isn't actually in conflict with the Suttas
If that is so (and I honestly do not know, because much like Thanissaro Bhikkhu I have not read it), then what value does it provide a practitioner over-and-above sutta reading alone? Or phrased another way, how would one argue to Thanissaro Bhikkhu or myself that reading the Abhidhamma Pitaka would actually be a "positive advantage"
Metta,
Retro.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Honestly, I read it so I could more easily see the proto-flavor of it in the Suttas, such as it might exist.
Not finished with it, though; haven't found the stamina.
Not finished with it, though; haven't found the stamina.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings Dave,
Metta,
Retro.
Do you mind sharing the outcomes of your personal investigation? What is your understanding of the matter, thus far?daverupa wrote:Honestly, I read it so I could more easily see the proto-flavor of it in the Suttas, such as it might exist.
Not finished with it, though; haven't found the stamina.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
I have read Abhidhamma many times and refer to it as a source for quick information.
I have read Abhidhamma before I started reading Sutta.
With that knowledge, I would say it is not necessary for a person like Thanissaro to read Abhidhamma.
With the little knowledge I have about Ven. thanissaro, I would say he is capable of come up with his own Abhidhamma.
I think he has already attempted it by saying that there is a consciousness outside the five aggregate!
I have read Abhidhamma before I started reading Sutta.
With that knowledge, I would say it is not necessary for a person like Thanissaro to read Abhidhamma.
With the little knowledge I have about Ven. thanissaro, I would say he is capable of come up with his own Abhidhamma.
I think he has already attempted it by saying that there is a consciousness outside the five aggregate!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings Sarath,
Thanks.
Are your readings from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or commentarial compendiums such as A Manual of Abhidhamma?
Or both?
Metta,
Retro.
Thanks.
Are your readings from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or commentarial compendiums such as A Manual of Abhidhamma?
Or both?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Hi five bells,
Personally, I don't think it is either good nor bad. If you derive benefit from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's approach then continue studying/practicing under his guidance.
Some yogis and teachers will find the Abhidhamma useful - others not. We're all different and that is why there is a range of different approaches.
With metta,
Ben
Personally, I don't think it is either good nor bad. If you derive benefit from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's approach then continue studying/practicing under his guidance.
Some yogis and teachers will find the Abhidhamma useful - others not. We're all different and that is why there is a range of different approaches.
With metta,
Ben
fivebells wrote:At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Oh, I don't think it's bad, I didn't get anything out of the parts I read. Just kind of shocked, since I thought it was part of the canon.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings fivebells,
The aforementioned Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate explores the history behind the Abhidhamma Pitaka and how it came to be.
Metta,
Retro.
It is!fivebells wrote:Oh, I don't think it's bad, I didn't get anything out of the parts I read. Just kind of shocked, since I thought it was part of the canon.
The aforementioned Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate explores the history behind the Abhidhamma Pitaka and how it came to be.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
It is and it isn't. The Abhidhamma is not necessary for awakening (though there are likely some Abhidhammists who might disagree), but as being part of the Tradition, I would think that some familiarity with it would not be a bad thing. I might disagree with Ven Thanissaro on this or that point, but I do not see not knowing Abhidhamma as being a disqualifying problem.fivebells wrote:At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Yes I mainly read Ven. Narda's A Manual of Abhidhamma.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sarath,
Thanks.
Are your readings from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or commentarial compendiums such as A Manual of Abhidhamma?
Or both?
Metta,
Retro.
I have read few others, but I am comfortable with Narada's book.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
http://www.palikanon.com/english/intro- ... book_i.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the Expositor 1. p.37: "And tradition has it that those Bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a Bhikkhus who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma
the Expositor 1. p.37: "And tradition has it that those Bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a Bhikkhus who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??
Greetings Robert,
What particular states of confusion do you believe the Expositor is speaking of here?
The one positive lasting learning of my reading of Abhidhamma texts has been that which relates to the mula (roots) of mindstates. Yes, this is found in its completeness in the suttas too (IMO), but as a theme and principle aspect of the Dhamma, it appears to be a more dominant concept in Abhidhammic discourse than in other bodies of work. Teaching on mindstates underpin the teachings of kamma and vipaka and therefore seem valuable in the understanding of the nature of sankhata-dhammas.
Metta,
Retro.
What particular states of confusion do you believe the Expositor is speaking of here?
The one positive lasting learning of my reading of Abhidhamma texts has been that which relates to the mula (roots) of mindstates. Yes, this is found in its completeness in the suttas too (IMO), but as a theme and principle aspect of the Dhamma, it appears to be a more dominant concept in Abhidhammic discourse than in other bodies of work. Teaching on mindstates underpin the teachings of kamma and vipaka and therefore seem valuable in the understanding of the nature of sankhata-dhammas.
Metta,
Retro.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."