Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

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robertk
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by robertk »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am I'd love to know what these concepts are. The impression I get is that very few have actually read the Abhidhamma because it's so dense and unintelligible. They read the commentaries of the Abhidhamma, of which I have read a little and made my decision.
BrokenBones,
I would love you to study Abhidhamma.
An easy introduction is the Abhidhammatthasangaha.

Then while studying keep in mind that the Abhidhamma is here and now - it is not some book of unapproachable ideas.
Basically it describes the elements of our lives, and those elements we aspire to.
Then the Commentaries explain the knotty parts and aid the removal of the veil of ignorance.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by mikenz66 »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:55 am No, you can't safely say that. The concepts found exclusively in the Abhidhamma Pitaka probably don't number more than a couple of dozen.
Unfortunately, when people say "Abhidhamma" they usually mean "Abhidhamma + Commentaries", which makes it extremely confusing. The Canonical Abhidhamma books https://suttacentral.net/pitaka/abhidhamma/pli-tv-ab are quite repetitive, but not very difficult to read.

From Bhikkhu Sujato's introduction on Sutta Central, https://suttacentral.net/abhidhamma-gui ... g=en#item2
The Books of the Theravāda Abhidhamma

For the most part, the long and complex texts of the Theravāda Abhidhamma are concerned with analyzing and classifying material, not with explaining it. Presumably they would have been taught by experienced teachers in monasteries, who would have drawn out, explained, and illustrated the abstruse texts. Eventually such explanations were codified and recorded in the Pali commentaries.

While they introduced a number of new terms and methods, the canonical Abhidhamma texts are doctrinally conservative. Many of the concepts familiar from later Abhidhamma are not found—ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or indvidual essence. While some new terms are found, for the most part they seem to have been introduced in order to clarify and disambiguate the terminology, and weren’t intended to convey specific new concepts. That is not to say that there are no new ideas, just that they play a fairly minor role overall.

I'd be skeptical of anyone who claims they are criticising the Abhidhamma, but doesn't realise that the canonical Abhidhamma texts don't explicitly discuss "ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or individual essence." (Apart from in the Points of Controversy, Kathāvatthu, which the Theravada tradition data as later than the other books).

This thread has some useful discussion by Ven Dhammananddo:
Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:40 am
mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:41 pmAm I missing something, or is that four-fold classification only explicit in the later texts such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha?
Everything that's classified as a paramattha dhamma in the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha is also classified as such in the Atthakathās. So with regard to content there's no innovation here on the part of Anuruddha. Then the order in which the four are arranged by Anuruddha seems to be loosely modelled on that of the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, where cittas and cetasikas are covered in the first book, the Cittuppādakaṇḍa, matter in the second, the Rūpakaṇḍa, while nibbāna is first mentioned in the third book, Nikkhepakaṇḍa, and treated in detail in the fourth, the Aṭṭhakathākaṇḍa.

So as far as I can tell Anuruddha's only innovation in this connection is his giving the scheme a name: catuparamatthadhamma – a term that doesn't seem to appear in any text before the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha.

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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:16 pm I'd be skeptical of anyone who claims they are criticising the Abhidhamma, but doesn't realise that the canonical Abhidhamma texts don't explicitly discuss "ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or individual essence." (Apart from in the Points of Controversy, Kathāvatthu, which the Theravada tradition data as later than the other books).
The distinction between conventional truth vs ultimate truth is found in the earliest parts of the Kathāvatthu as you say. That goes back to the schism with the Pudgalavāda, and so it appears very early on in Theravādin history. We also see such a scheme in the works of all the other early schools too, and of course in Mahāyāna. The Kathāvatthu also contains doctrines of momentariness. As far as I'm aware, the idea of sabhāva isn't in the Theravādin canonical Abhidhamma books (I'm unsure about the other schools). The picture we get is that these doctrines, possibly with the exception of sabhāva (though I doubt it) developed within and with the various Abhidhammas. There isn't really a disctinction between "Abhidhamma" and want the commentaries say IMO. In fact the canonical Abhidhamma works look like they are based on the ideas of momentariness etc, and so we could say these ideas preceded them. If you want proto-Abhidhamma, possibly before there was all this, then DN 33 & DN 34 would be examples of it (that said, I think the Two Truths goes back to the Buddha's time).
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:10 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am I'd love to know what these concepts are. The impression I get is that very few have actually read the Abhidhamma because it's so dense and unintelligible. They read the commentaries of the Abhidhamma, of which I have read a little and made my decision.
Agree.
Bhikkhu Bodhi said that reading Abhidhamma is like eating grass. :D
You have to spend many years reading and thinking to understand what it is.
However it is not good enough reason to reject it.
The Buddha stated the Dhamma is visible 'here & now'... not after years of wading through 7 valleys of dry bones.

Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:16 pm ...
Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa, which possibly pre-dates the Abhidhamma works (as it contradicts them in places), does talk of sabhāva.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:10 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am I'd love to know what these concepts are. The impression I get is that very few have actually read the Abhidhamma because it's so dense and unintelligible. They read the commentaries of the Abhidhamma, of which I have read a little and made my decision.
Agree.
Bhikkhu Bodhi said that reading Abhidhamma is like eating grass. :D
You have to spend many years reading and thinking to understand what it is.
However it is not good enough reason to reject it.
The Buddha stated the Dhamma is visible 'here & now'... not after years of wading through 7 valleys of dry bones.

Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
I have to disagree with you.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 pm Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:38 am I have to disagree with you.
On what actual basis?

Do you believe Nagas hid it under a giant rock until the Third Council three centuries later?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

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retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:52 am Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 pm Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:38 am I have to disagree with you.
On what actual basis?

Do you believe Nagas hid it under a giant rock until the Third Council three centuries later?

Metta,
Paul. :)
It is quite possible that snake beings hid under a giant rock and later disseminated the words of the Buddhas mother from heaven - as he obviously taught her on a trip up there. As easily as likely as the idea that the Buddha was a living man who lived and preached the dhamma.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:52 am Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 pm Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:38 am I have to disagree with you.
On what actual basis?

Do you believe Nagas hid it under a giant rock until the Third Council three centuries later?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi Paul
I do not believe anything word for word whether it is in Abhidhamma, Tipitaka, or Bible. :D
I know you are a fan of Kalama Sutta.
So abide by it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,

That doesn't really answer my question, but OK.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:46 am
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:52 am Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 pm Being a simple person, the simple reason I reject it is that it is not the words of the Buddha or his close disciples.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:38 am I have to disagree with you.
On what actual basis?

Do you believe Nagas hid it under a giant rock until the Third Council three centuries later?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi Paul
I do not believe anything word for word whether it is in Abhidhamma, Tipitaka, or Bible. :D
I know you are a fan of Kalama Sutta.
So abide by it.
I apply Kalama sutta perspective on secular, simplified, westernised Buddhism too. :mrgreen:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by mikenz66 »

I actually quite enjoy listening to talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and various other Bhikkhus who were trained by excellent teachers in Asia. That experience obviously informs their understanding of Dhamma and makes them a valuable connection to a living tradition. They often have very deep insights into what is or isn't skilful. However, Ven Thanissaro (and also Ajahn Amaro, and possibly others I've forgotten) are quite clear that what they brought back from Thailand was their training and experience, not a detailed knowledge of texts. As they tell it, in occasional asides in their talks, their study of texts occurred after they returned to the West and had lay students quizzing them about where in the suttas to read about what they were teaching. Obviously their textual interpretations reflect what they learned during their training, and are valuable in that context.

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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

robertk advised BrokenBones,
I would love you to study Abhidhamma.
An easy introduction is the Abhidhammatthasangaha..
Is that good advice even where abhidhamma is concerned? Which century was Abhidhammatthasangaha
written? I am currently reading a book called
"Primitive Buddhism"
by a Japanese scholar named Kogen Mizuno. Primitive here means close to the earliest.
It seems even the Japanese knew how abhidhamma evolved.
First came Dhammasangani belonging to the early period alongside Sarvastivadin Sangitiparyaya,
Vibhanga still belongs to the early period
... too much to copy .. it is on page 15... He writes
"But as this tendency (meaning abhidhammic tendency) became more specialized, the way of explanation became totally different from what the suttas were meant to have"
Dear robertk; Why would you advice Brokenbones to read material that deviates from Buddha's teaching?
I would ask him to check out Dhammasangani. BB appears to be a fairly quick witted member of the forum.
Even Niddesa which is extremely early occasionally misrepresents Buddha, if so, can we trust Abhidhammatthasangaha?
Dear Brokenbones: it seems you understand the suttas fairly well, but if you ever felt like wading into Abhidhamma, please consider the ones of the earliest period, such as Dhammasangani and Vibhanga.
  • Different Buddhist schools deviate the least here, Kogen Mizuno writes.
Not that even Niddesa is perfect. Just consider its misrepresentation of Buddha's teaching
in Sn 4.11.
With love :candle:
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:37 am ..
I can wear crocs, no problem.
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Re: Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

Post by Pulsar »

Thanissaro may not have read Abhidhamma to the extent that Erich Frauwallner did,
who wrote "Studies in Abhidhamma Literature and the Origins of Buddhist Philosophical systems."

Perhaps in that talk (OP) Thanissaro merely implies that he is not into Abhidhamma?
Reading the Pali canon, one cannot escape Abhidhamma.
For instance the last 2 suttas of Digha Nikaya DN 33 and DN 34 are works of Abhidhamma as some scholars claim. Many later suttas have abhidhamma ideas built into them. MN 111 is a clear example. But this is deviating from the topic.
Thanissaro had some familiarity with abhidhamma, how could he not?
Here is an instance where he points to Niddesa. An excerpt from Kalaha Vivada sutta Sn 4.11 which the Venerable translated in 1994. I will explain it minimally.
Excerpt 
"One not percipient of perceptionsnot percipient of aberrant perceptions,not unpercipient,nor percipient of what's disappeared:[2] for one arriving at this, form disappears
In the footnotes to this verse the Venerable writes, According to Nd.I, this passage is describing the four formless jhanas, (this is how abhidhamma interpreted Form disappears)

Earlier in Sn 4.11 Buddha says 
"Conditioned by name & form is contact"
If so, what happens when form disappears?
How do the dear people on this forum interpret this verse?
You dont have to answer this.
To me it is clear that Sn 4.11 is a teaching on Dependent Origination. Sutta is saying
"when form disappears to the meditating monk, contact too disappears"
Hence dependent origination will cease to be.
Thanissaro is very familiar with the Pali canon. He is an erudite monk.
But this particular case points to an instance where Niddesa as early as it was, misinterpreted a teaching in the Attakavagga, a sutta which was clearly memorised by the followers of the day, as the stories of Sona and Nandamatha imply.
When Sona was asked to speak of Dhamma, by the Buddha, he recited the verses of the Atthakavagga. Buddha responded, 
“Well done, monk! The Group of Octads is well memorised by you. You have pondered it carefully, reflected upon it thoroughly. You have a beautiful voice, a good delivery, and clear articulation. You made the meaning clear”
Did Abhidhamma always get Buddha right? Thanissaro made me think about it.
With love :candle:
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