Thanissaro has not read the Abhidhamma??

[robertk]

In Buddha's teaching there is only 6 doors, eye, ear, nose, and so forth.
Abhidhamma adds multiple doors, you write.
With love

"Abhidhamma adds multiple doors" I don't recall saying that? If I did it must have been a typo as Abhidhamma only has six doors (dvara) .

[robertk]

With regard to light :
Visuddhimagga XV 39

“Eye-consciousness arises due to eye, visible datum, light,
and attention. [489] Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture, and
attention. Nose-consciousness arises due to nose, odour, air, and attention.
Tongue-consciousness arises due to tongue, flavour, water, and attention.

Light is considered necessary to fully experience 'visible datum" . Compare a completely blacked out room with the colors that appear once the lights are turned on, or curtains opened.

[robertk]

A physical base is not a dhamma.

Why do you claim that the bases like eye base and ear base are not dhammas?

Buddha's awakening had to do with realizing that rupa is a mental activity

Do you think sound, for example, is a mental activity?

[robertk]

with regard to the eye base and ear base:

Visuddhimagga XIV
1

. 47 There is what is called the “eye” in the world. That looks like a blue lotus
petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light
circles. The eye [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the
middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the]
eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those
who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye’s seven layers like oil sprinkled on
seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose
[respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a
warrior prince is by four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing,
and fanning. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it
is maintained by life; it is fu rnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch.
XVIII, §5); it is the size of a mere louse’s head; and it duly serves both as physical
basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of
the cognitive series]. [446]
48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma:
“The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object
Is small and it is subtle, too, no bigger, than a louse’s head.”(?)
49. 2. The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with
its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by
fine brown hairs. It is assisted by the elements in the way aforesaid. It is
consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by
life; it is equipped with colour, etc.; and it duly serves both as physical basis and
as door for ear-consciousness, and the rest.

[Ceisiwr]

Ceisiwr responds

I said that light is physical in physics, and that not everyone uses scientific terminology when they say “matter”.

Are you speaking English in a non-scientific way, when you say Light is physical in Physics?.
Can you bring me a published article which says that Light is physical in Physics?. It is a bit like some idiot saying Sodium is chemical in Chemistry. Sodium is a chemical no matter what. Why have the qualification chemistry? truthfully "Light is physical in Physics"??? is hogwash.
Heaven help the science teachers who teach 10th graders "Light is physical in Physics"
With love
PS anyhow please don't disrupt the thread if you have nothing useful to contribute in relation to "Why abhidhamma considers light is material/matter?"
This was my question to robertk. I have great respect for robertk. He explains abhidhamma, but he does not spout nonsense.

As a general definition matter is that which has mass and occupies space. Since photons have neither, they aren’t strictly material. They are though physical, which is what I was getting at.

All one needs to know and need to be convinced of, is that in Buddha Dhamma, rupa is a worldly dhamma/phenomenon.
Rupa soteriologically speaking is a sense impression made on the mind.

Why do you think that rupa being a “worldly dhamma” means that it’s a mental impression? The Sautrantikas argued something similar to you, as does Yogacara, but I suspect their reasons for doing so are different to yours.

[robertk]

May the light of wisdom enable our friends here to realize that Rupa is a mental dhamma, and not a physicality as Vedic culture thought in Buddha's time.
Buddha's words in SN 22. 94 and SA 38, tells me there were those who could not comprehend this, even in those ancient times, even as the Buddha taught them.
The

• "Blind and the Sightless"

cannot be helped even by a Buddha, according to the Pali canon.
Good night! Dear BrokenBones.
With love

What is SA 38?

The
"Blind and the Sightless"
cannot be helped even by a Buddha, according to the Pali canon.

The Abhidhamma is part of the Pali canon.


Now more on rupa as materiality.
From the Satipatthana Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

"And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' (‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye pathavīdhātu āpodhātu tejodhātu vāyodhātū’ti.)



"O bhikkhus, in whatever manner, a clever cow-butcher or a cow-butcher's apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it by way of portions, should be sitting at the junction of a four-cross-road; in the same manner, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body, according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'

"Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings to naught in the world.

"Thus also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body.

In the Mahāhatthipadopamasutta Bhikkhu Bodhi uses the words earth wind water fire for the translation of the 4 great elements whereas Soma (in the sutta above) used the words solidity, cohesion, oscillation and caloricity.
Either translation is fine if we can see that these elements are not some abstract idea- they are right here and now.
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

“What, friends, is the fire element? The fire element may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to; that is, that by which one is warmed, ages, and is consumed, and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tasted gets completely digested, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to: this is called the internal fire element. Now both the internal fire element and the external fire element are simply fire element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
[...]
The material form in what has thus come to be is included in the material form aggregate affected by clinging. The feeling in what has thus come to be is included in the feeling aggregate affected by clinging. The perception in what has thus come to be is included in the perception aggregate affected by clinging. The formations in what has thus come to be are included in the formations aggregate affected by clinging. The consciousness in what has thus come to be is included in the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. He understands thus: ‘This, indeed, is how there comes to be the inclusion, gathering, and amassing of things into these five aggregates affected by clinging. Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.’ At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.

“If, friends, internally the ear is intact but no external sounds come into its range…as in §§27—28…At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.

“If, friends, internally the nose is intact but no external smells come into its range…At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.

“If, friends, internally the tongue is intact but no external flavours come into its range…At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.

“If, friends, internally the body is intact but no external tangibles come into its range…At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.

[robertk]

Sammādiṭṭhisutta—The Discourse on Right View
https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
Bhikkhu Sujato

But what are name and form? What is their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation?
Katamaṁ panāvuso, nāmarūpaṁ, katamo nāmarūpasamudayo, katamo nāmarūpanirodho, katamā nāmarūpanirodhagāminī paṭipadā?
Feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention—
Vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phasso, manasikāro—
this is called name.
idaṁ vuccatāvuso, nāmaṁ;
The four primary elements, and form derived from the four primary elements—
cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ—
this is called form.
idaṁ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṁ.
Such is name and such is form.

Bodhi translation:
https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/bodhi?r ... ight=false

“And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, and attention—these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements—these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration.

“When a noble disciple has thus understood mentality-materiality, the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality-materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality…he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

[sphairos]

As a general definition matter is that which has mass and occupies space. Since photons have neither, they aren’t strictly material. They are though physical, which is what I was getting at.

Only the rest mass of a photon in free space equals zero.

But a photon has energy, and, according to E = mc2, m = e/c2.

[frank k]

At 9m20s in this talk Thanissaro says he has not read the Abhidhamma. This is very surprising to me.

I didn't read any of this thread, with it's 11 pages so far, but I would venture to guess the situation is similar to
many people haven't read the entire Koran or Bible.
You didn't read most of it, but you probably read a tiny little bit of it, enough to let you know you weren't interested in reading the rest.

[asahi]

In ancient India 2500 years ago , rupa simply are referring to four great elements and form or what appear and experience at six sense sphere .

[Ceisiwr]

As a general definition matter is that which has mass and occupies space. Since photons have neither, they aren’t strictly material. They are though physical, which is what I was getting at.

Only the rest mass of a photon in free space equals zero.

But a photon has energy, and, according to E = mc2, m = e/c2.

Photons never occupy space nor have mass, no?

[Pulsar]

robertk wrote

"Abhidhamma adds multiple doors" I don't recall saying that? If I did it must have been a typo as Abhidhamma only has six doors (dvara)

I apologise, for my SNAFU. I can scroll back later and find your comment. I thought you wrote for example that rupa enters the eye door as solidity/materiality, and then moves through several doors at which point it becomes mentality. Later...added.
I found your comment that refers to multiple doors.
Here it is

However, the Abhidhamma commentaries explain that initially there is cakkhuviññāṇa (taking rupa as object), and then there are many mind-door processes which do not have rupa as object.

With love

[Pulsar]

robertk wrote

Light is considered necessary to fully experience 'visible datum" . Compare a completely blacked out room with the colors that appear once the lights are turned on, or curtains opened.

I did not say light is unnecessary for sight. The conversation was getting so whacky, once Ceiswir intruded and tried to help us define light, by giving us his opinion.. "light is matter/a physicality according to Quantum Physics" He did not quite say QM, but it was in reference to photons,
if I remember right.
What I meant at that point was, an analysis of the nature of light as the forum members were engaging in at that point was not necessary for understanding rupa as Buddha meant it in SN 22.94 and SA 37 and SA 38.
People are in the dark (without light) in a metaphorical sense, if they insist still that rupa is physical, when the Buddha denied it in the sutta on the flowers.

• Buddha admitted clearly rupa is a worldly dhamma, but those who are blind and sightless, are unable to see it so.

With love

[Pulsar]

robertk wrote

Why do you claim that the bases like eye base and ear base are not dhammas?

They are entirely physical by themselves.
Do you think the eye, ear, tongue, nose, skin of a corpse are dhammas?
Buddha has not claimed that physical things are dhammas. It is true that later commentaries admitted that physical things are subject to the laws of DO.
For example Salistamba Sutta. But no one knows whether it is a Mahayana or a Theravada sutta. Salistamba sutta says things that Buddha did not say.
However, it was influential in making people think, that physical things are dhammas, and that Himalayas arise due to Dependent Origination.
Robertk continues

Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:38 am
Buddha's awakening had to do with realizing that rupa is a mental activity
Do you think sound, for example, is a mental activity?

Did I say so? Sound is not a mental activity. I will address the other issues you raised later. Thank you for the time you took, Dear Robert.
I find this dialogue very useful.
With love

[Pulsar]

Ceisiwr wrote

As a general definition matter is that which has mass and occupies space. Since photons have neither, they aren’t strictly material. They are though physical, which is what I was getting at.

You are saying photons are physical, in the sense photons are not mental???
Is this what you are saying?

• Photons are not mental, therefore they are physical?

C continued

All one needs to know and need to be convinced of, is that in Buddha Dhamma, rupa is a worldly dhamma/phenomenon.
Rupa soteriologically speaking is a sense impression made on the mind.
Why do you think that rupa being a “worldly dhamma” means that it’s a mental impression? The Sautrantikas argued something similar to you, as does Yogacara, but I suspect their reasons for doing so are different to yours.

You appear to understand what my reasons are for agreeing with Buddha in SN 22.94. Please tell me what you think my reasons are? What were the reasons of Sauthrantika for their way of thinking, that differs from mine?
Hopefully I will find your answer helpful for my spiritual advancement.
Thank You.
With love