Right view with effluents

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chownah
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Right view with effluents

Post by chownah »

There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming];
This is from MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty.

I would like to hear some discussion about what these three things are as descriptions of this kind of right view:
1. effluents
2. siding with merit
3. resulting in aquisitions [of becoming]

chownah
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acinteyyo
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by acinteyyo »

chownah wrote:
There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming];
This is from MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty.

I would like to hear some discussion about what these three things are as descriptions of this kind of right view:
1. effluents
2. siding with merit
3. resulting in aquisitions [of becoming]

chownah
Hi chownah,
I'll give you some alternatives to the three phrases in question. Maybe you'll benefit from it.

1. effluents = āsava: Mental effluent, pollutant, or fermentation. Four qualities — sensuality, views, becoming, and ignorance — that "flow out" of the mind and create the flood of the round of death and rebirth.
2. siding with merit = puññābhāgiyā: conducive to merit
3. resulting in aquisitions [of becoming] = upadhivepakkā: resulting in "upadhi" [base, ground, substratum (for rebirth)]

In the next paragraph of MN117 "right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions" is explained in more detail. "siding with merit" and "resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]" are not so much direct descriptions of "right view with effluents" but rather descriptions of results of "right view with effluents".
MN117 wrote:"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
The "right view with effluents", which is "conducive to merit" but also "results in attachement, that is the ground for becoming" is the following views:

- 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed'
- 'There are fruits & results of good & bad actions.'
- 'There is this world & the next world.'
- 'There is mother & father.'
- 'There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

This "right view with effluents" is meritorious but still a cause for becoming.
There is however a "right view that is noble, without effluents" and that "noble right view" is knowledge in terms of the four noble truth. (See Note 1 of MN117)

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
LXNDR
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by LXNDR »

it is OUR Right View

all arahants amongst us i in advance ask for an excuse
SarathW
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by SarathW »

In regard to OP, the following are called Lokiya Samma Dithi (worldly or mundane right view) - the other is called Lokuttara Samma Dithi ( supermundane right view)

======
1. effluents = attachments but
2. siding with merit - Wholsome
3. resulting in aquisitions [of becoming] - Mainly becoming about Form realm and Formless realm. (not include sensual becoming)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Goofaholix
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by Goofaholix »

This is quite a confusing sutta to me, but acinteyyo's analysis confirms what I thought it appeared to be saying.

So right view with effluents is better than wrong view, but presumably not by much if it fuels becoming and rebirth. This passage (i think) is often pointed out as proof that you must believe in rebirth to have right view, even though para loka more strictly means "other worlds" (presumably other realms), and who wants their with effluents anyway? (maybe baggage would be a more up to date term for effluents).

What's not really clear to me is whether one must go through a stage of right view with effluents before casting them off and then achieving right view without effluents, ie is it a necessary pre-requisite?

I guess the "spontaneously reborn beings" gives more support for the need to believe in rebirth anyway, though I'm not sure what the difference between spontaneously and non-spontaneously reborn beings is.

It strikes me that the examples listed don't have a lot in common and therefore they are only listed as examples. So the theme of wrong view is "Nothing this... and nothing that... " ie everything is an illusion, or a nothing matters type of attitude, or nihilism.

Right view with effluents by contrast is taking all these same things as real and attaching to them finding morality, security, or consolation this leading to becoming, so it's not ideally where we want to be. It strikes me this is the life of someone following traditional religion but not going to the next step of freeing the mind.

Right view without effluents is about discernment, having seen through attachment to the examples listed above one transcends them, this is what the teaching is about.

That's my take on it anyway.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah
SarathW
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by SarathW »

"I guess the "spontaneously reborn beings" gives more support for the need to believe in rebirth anyway, though I'm not sure what the difference between spontaneously and non-spontaneously reborn beings is."

===============
Good question.
After the world has been destroyed and recreate another world (say like earth), the beings will be born without a mother or father I guess.
:thinking:

Does Buddhism say how the first life come to earth?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by pulga »

Kullūpamaṃ vo, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desitaṃ, ājānantehi dhammāpi vo pahātabbā pageva adhammā.

“Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even the teachings, how much more so things contrary to the teachings. MN 22
Not that it really matters, but SuttaCentral doesn't seem to be accounting for the "desitaṃ" in the reading it's chosen.

Ven. Ñanamoli's translation:
Kullūpamaṃ vo bhikkhave ājānantehi dhammāpi vo pahātabbā, pageva adhammā. (PTS edition)

Bhikkhus, when you know the simile of the raft, [then even True] ideas should be abandoned by you, how much more so untrue ideas.
Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching. ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by Zom »

Ah again this MN 117 with its dubious statements about right views. Worth reading: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/articles/m ... rfeit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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acinteyyo
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by acinteyyo »

Goofaholix wrote:What's not really clear to me is whether one must go through a stage of right view with effluents before casting them off and then achieving right view without effluents, ie is it a necessary pre-requisite?
I don't think so.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by acinteyyo »

Zom wrote:Ah again this MN 117 with its dubious statements about right views. Worth reading: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/articles/m ... rfeit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Excellent input! I am surprised. Very conclusive essay. :goodpost:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
SarathW
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by SarathW »

Zom wrote:Ah again this MN 117 with its dubious statements about right views. Worth reading: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/articles/m ... rfeit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Zom.
Who compiled this article?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sylvester
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by Sylvester »

I believe the author is a DW member, Sekha.

While there is much to laud in the article, Ven Analayo takes a more nuanced approach to the issue in his analysis of MN 117 and its Agama parallels -
According to the preamble found in all versions of the discourse, the main intent of
the present exposition was to show the supportive function of the other seven path factors
for right concentration. That is, the point at stake does not seem to have been an
exposition of the path factors individually, but rather their interrelation as a basis for
developing right concentration, and in particular the function of right view, right effort,
and right mindfulness as means of correction and support for the other path factors.109
This intent of the exposition would not require a supramundane description of the path
factors. Hence, it seems quite possible that the exposition of the supramundane path
factors is a later expansion of the present discourse. Perhaps an early commentary on
the Mahacattarisaka-sutta developed such a treatment of the path factors from the supramundane
perspective of path attainment.
What originally may have been only an alternative
mode of explanation preserved in an oral commentary, during the process of
transmission could then have become part of the discourse itself.

A Comparative Study of the Majjhima Nikaya, p.660
What is a bit unfortunate is that Ven Analayo's analysis assumes that the concept of lokuttara is related to the Abhidhamma concept of lokuttara as "supramundane". I've disagreed with this assumption previously - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ne#p318127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where I suggested:-
Firstly, MN 117 is not the only Pali sutta that employs lokuttarā. I'd penned some thoughts about this previously - viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20509#p287266

If one pops into Sutta Central and does a wild card search on "lokuttar*" (http://suttacentral.net/search?query=lo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 5&offset=0), the bulk of the results (ignoring MN 117 for now) indicates that the word lokuttara in the suttas is synonymous with escape from/transcendence of the world, not "supramundane". It's entirely possible that MN 117 started life having a meaning no different from its lokuttara siblings, until perhaps the maggaṅga concept was introduced later. I'm rather surprised that Ven Analayo does not entertain this "creeping" evolution possibility, given that he documents it elsewhere in the MN Comparative Study.
This bifurcation of Right View into the worldly and world-transcending is also found in a Samyukta Agama sutra -
何等為正見?謂正見有二種,有正見,是世、俗,有漏、有取,轉向善趣;有正見,是聖、出世間,無漏、無取,正盡苦,轉向苦邊.

What is Right View? There are 2 kinds of Right View. There is Right View, of this world, with taints (sāsavā), with acquisitions, directing one to a fortunate rebirth; there is Right View, that is noble, world-transcending, without taints, without acquisitions, leading to the exhaustion of Suffering, directing one to the end of Suffering.

SA 785
As should be obvious, whoever translated SA 785 into Chinese understood lokuttara in a very suttanta style, which does not resort to the Abhidharma reading that was already prevalent at the time of the translation projects in China. While SA 785 does not survive in the SN collection, this portion has at least survived in MN 117.

And surely it can be implied that even the jhānas are amenable to this worldly and world-transcending dichotomy (as was in fact done explicitly in SA 785)? The fact that AN 4.123 suggests that life after brahmahood secured by the jhānas could be the lower realms must be the basis for the bifurcation of dhammas that enable one to transcend the world, versus those that do not.

And this I think is the principle difference between "worldly" Right View, versus Noble Right View. In the former, the Self is always posited as that which undergoes rebirth. In the latter, especially when we see the progressive subtlety of Right View in MN 9, the Noble version comes into play in terms of the Dhamma, without any recourse to the standard "worldly" Right View.
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Zom
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by Zom »

And this I think is the principle difference between "worldly" Right View, versus Noble Right View. In the former, the Self is always posited as that which undergoes rebirth.
Not necessarily, because nothing is such "mundane" view speaks about "a self" (atta), so this so called "mundane" view is a correct right view, not wrong view. Concerning the passage in Chinese parallel - it looks like it was influenced by the same abhidhammic source, and does not look like authentic buddhavacana version. This commentarial idea is understandable though - this same right view could share someone who was not a buddhist at all. However, making a confrontation between "noble" view and a view "with asavas" was certainly a mistake, because they both are parts of a Right View path factor.
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by daverupa »

Zom wrote:However, making a confrontation between "noble" view and a view "with asavas" was certainly a mistake, because they both are parts of a Right View path factor.
The tainted one is part of the wanderer milieu in which the Buddha found himself; the growing conception of the ongoing cycle of beings between this world & the other world had grown, over centuries, into a large structure of realms with a special spectrum of them set aside for attainers of certain meditative states.

This whole structure was a pursuit of rebirth, and while some contemporary theorists claimed annihilation, most claimed continuity within this developing structure, in one way or another, according to a tainted sort of right view, e.g. ethical continuity as a function of kamma, etc.

But the Buddha taught a Path that transcends this whole samsaric cycle; a right view that slices right past that whole cosmology:
AN 4.123: Puggala Sutta wrote: The Abhassara devas, monks, have a life-span of two eons. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.
So, this tainted right view leads to using up lifespans & continuing on in the round of rebirths; that view integrated with the Dhamma is not concerned with any such blameworthy activity at all, and in fact that Dhammically integrous view (sorry, tilt) requires no interface with tainted views at all.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Right view with effluents

Post by Zom »

This whole structure was a pursuit of rebirth, and while some contemporary theorists claimed annihilation, most claimed continuity within this developing structure, in one way or another, according to a tainted sort of right view, e.g. ethical continuity as a function of kamma, etc.

But the Buddha taught a Path that transcends this whole samsaric cycle; a right view that slices right past that whole cosmology:
Don't forget that a view that "there is a rebirth" (this world, next world) - is a right view (and only in this corrupted sutta it is called "tainted"). If there is no rebirth, Dhamma is just useless and Buddha's strivings were futile.
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