Hell as a mind moment

[Vanda]

Waterchan,

It was to Nicolas, the post was stamped: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:56 am

Better yet, if you are truly interested in knowing more about this point of view watch the video Aloka posted in this thread - Concept of Heaven and Hell in Buddhism (just over 4 minutes), stamped: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:28 am

Also read the last two suttas Aloka and I posted

[Vanda]

Befriend,

I agree, both can be had. Faith in the normal sense of the word can be good, so I am not dismissing that. Buddha Dhamma actually speaks a lot about saddha though, it's defined a little differently than the English term. A good short definition comes from accesstoinsight.org - "Saddhā: Conviction, faith. A confidence in the Buddha that gives one the willingness to put his teachings into practice."

Sorry to hear about your struggles. So good to hear that you follow the precepts. That is so important for all, but many don't

[Aloka]

Such a lovely sutta you quoted.

Reminds me a little of this favorite one of mine ...

That's one of my favourites too, also this one:

AN 6.47 Sanditthika Sutta: Visible Here-&-Now

Then Moliyasivaka the wanderer went to the Blessed One and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "'The Dhamma is visible here-&-now, the Dhamma is visible here-&-now,' it is said. To what extent is the Dhamma visible here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves?"

"Very well, then, Sivaka, I will ask you a question in return. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: When greed is present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is present within me'? And when greed is not present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is not present within me'?"

"Yes, lord."

"The fact that when greed is present within you, you discern that greed is present within you; and when greed is not present within you, you discern that greed is not present within you: that is one way in which the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.

"What do you think: When aversion is present within you... When delusion is present within you... When a greedy quality[1] is present within you... When an aversive quality is present within you...

"What do you think: When a delusive quality is present within you, do you discern that 'A delusive quality is present within me'? And when a delusive quality is not present within you, do you discern that 'A delusive quality is not present within me'?"

"Yes, lord."

"The fact that when a delusive quality is present within you, you discern that a delusive quality is present within you; and when a delusive quality is not present within you, you discern that a delusive quality is not present within you: that is one way in which the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[waterchan]

Waterchan,

It was to Nicolas, the post was stamped: Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:56 am

Granted, you quoted a sutta back there, which I must have missed it because when I skim 5 pages of thread for a reference, I'm looking for weblinks or quotation tags. Still, that sutta does not support your position of hell and other realms being "mind-moments".

Better yet, if you are truly interested in knowing more about this point of view watch the video Aloka posted in this thread - Concept of Heaven and Hell in Buddhism (just over 4 minutes)

Interestingly the speakers in this video imply that the Buddha regarded the other realms as actually existing, and spoke of "hell and heaven on earth" as a metaphor. And there is no mention whatsoever of a "mind-moment".

Why do you find it so hard to provide a sutta reference that clearly expounds the other realms as mind-moments? Surely if the Buddha thought this was important, it wouldn't be hard to find at least one sutta reference to the cittakhana? You have stated in this thread that the suttas should be relied upon rather than the commentaries (and of course, this video is a modern-day commentary), so I hope you will understand why I hold you to that standard.

[Vanda]

Aloka,

That is such a beautiful sutta, it says it all so nicely. Thank you for that.


ไหว้

[Vanda]

Waterchan,

If heaven (nibbana) and hell (niraya, or the lower realms) are “places”, then I don’t understand, why didn’t the Buddha die under the Bodhi-tree? How could he experience heaven and not die?

Also, clinging is the condition of “becoming”, and "becoming" is the condition of “birth”, but we do not die every time we cling. That is paticcasamuppada. You want references to that read through all of the Nidana-samyutta in the Nidana Vagga, from the Samyutta Nikaya.

Additionally, read Aloka’s last post, AN 6.47 Sanditthika Sutta: Visible Here-&-Now. That pretty much *says it all*.

[waterchan]

Waterchan,

If heaven (nibbana) and hell (niraya, or the lower realms) are “places”, then I don’t understand, why didn’t the Buddha die under the Bodhi-tree? How could he experience heaven and not die?

Also, clinging is the condition of “becoming”, and "becoming" is the condition of “birth”, but we do not die every time we cling. That is paticcasamuppada. You want references to that read through all of the Nidana-samyutta in the Nidana Vagga, from the Samyutta Nikaya.

There is enough smoke and mirrors here, so I will ignore the fact that you just equated heaven with nibbana.

You are deflecting the argument away from my exceedingly simple request: The Buddha of the suttas does not mince words. If the Buddha subscribed to your "hell is a mind moment" theory he would have made it explicitly clear in his discourses. Please show me such a clear discourse. That's all I'm asking.

Additionally, read Aloka’s last post, AN 6.47 Sanditthika Sutta: Visible Here-&-Now. That pretty much *says it all*.

That is pretty much completely irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is your claim that can be found in the title of this thread. Please stop this intellectual dishonesty and come forth with a direct source to support your claims.

[befriend]

vanda what your referring to is this aspect of Buddhism called the divine eye one doesn't need to die to see heaven this is correct it doesn't mean there is no heaven. The Passing Away & Re-appearance of Beings

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma...

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime

[Vanda]

Waterchan,

Aloka’s last post, the Sanditthika sutta, isn’t irrelevant, it sure makes sense to me. It discusses how these things transpire within, not in some other world, and covers some basic ideas very well (i.e., "Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized").

It is a strange argument you make, asking for the words “mind moment” to be quoted. I don’t even know what those words mean nor have I ever used them, so why should I go looking for them in the suttas... lol

Again I ask,

If "heaven" (nibbana) and "hell" (niraya, or the lower realms) are "places", Why didn’t the Buddha die under the Bodhi-tree? How could he experience "heaven" (nibbana) and not die?

Paticcasamuppada is one of the main teachings of the Buddha. If clinging (upadana) is the condition of "becoming", and "becoming" is the condition of "birth", Why do we not die and become physically reborn every time we cling to something?

[befriend]

nibbana is not heaven. you should study Buddhism more.

[waterchan]

It is a strange argument you make, asking for the words “mind moment” to be quoted. I don’t even know what those words mean nor have I ever used them, so why should I go looking for them in the suttas... lol

Thanks for finally directly addressing my argument. In that case, it would have been courteous if you had admitted it from the start. In Theravada when we use the word "moment" it is normally with reference to a very specific Abhidhammic concept, the mind-moment, or cittakhana. You would not find this concept in the suttas, at least not in its usual, strictly defined sense in the Abhidhamma.

Again I ask,

If heaven (nibbana) and hell (niraya, or the lower realms) are “places”, Why didn’t the Buddha die under the Bodhi-tree? How could he experience heaven and not die?

The answer is that the Buddha did not experience heaven when he died. He experienced nibbana, which is a complete and final cessation of the five aggregates. The word literally means "extinguishment". No heavenly bliss, no discomfort, no feelings.

Paticcasamuppada is one of the main teachings of the Buddha. If clinging (upadana) is the condition of “becoming”, and "becoming" is the condition of “birth”, Why do we not die every time we cling to something?

I would be very careful when contemplating Dependent Origination. It is very subtle and hard to grasp, so much that the Buddha reprimanded Ananda, a stream winner, when the latter said that it seemed so simple to him.

Dependent origination is the teaching of how rebirth can happen without a transmigrating soul. Since it is about rebirth, DO describes a process that happens across lifetimes. Upadana, often translated as "clinging", has the literal meaning of "fuel". It "fuels" the process of becoming, birth, and the whole cycle until the cycle is cut off at the root, avijja (partial or total ignorance of the four noble truths). It does not mean that one moment you cling to something, the next moment you spontaneously explode and die.

[Vanda]

Waterchan,

LOL… the argument you had was strictly with your self. I have never heard of the term “mind moment”, I follow Dhamma-vinaya not Tipataka. But I am happy to know that this puts an end to it…

[Vanda]

To everyone discussing this,

Regardless of whether or not there is another hell, a physical hell kingdom of some sort residing somewhere else after death, we can still extinguish the 3 fires of greed, lust and ignorance in this moment, that can’t hurt can it? And we can still experience nibbana, coolness, in the moment, and that won’t prevent us from going off to the heavens to enjoy playing our harps later after we die, right? So, accepting the first one shouldn’t stop you from enjoying your afterlife adventures. ... We can all celebrate now

[waterchan]

I follow Dhamma-vinaya not Tipataka.

Mhm. Considering that you said nibbana is heaven, I find this exceedingly unlikely.

Tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability — a courtesy that was not well-earned — but I'm no longer willing to engage with your misplaced arrogance.

[Vanda]

Hmm.. Considering that you didn't read my post closely enough I find it exceedingly unlikely that you actually mean what you are saying....

My original post ~ "If heaven (nibbana) and hell (niraya, or the lower realms) are “places”, Why didn’t the Buddha die under the Bodhi-tree? ..."

I was using the broad term "heaven" only because you kept using the broad term "hell".

Don't blame someone for having pie on his face when you baked the pie... lol