Hell as a mind moment

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Vanda
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda »

waterchan:
He experienced nibbana, which is a complete and final cessation of the five aggregates. The word literally means "extinguishment".
So he experienced nibbana while living. No physical death was needed. Sounds like we are on the same track.

waterchan:
Dependent origination is the teaching of how rebirth can happen without a transmigrating soul. Since it is about rebirth, DO describes a process that happens across lifetimes. ... It does not mean that one moment you cling to something, the next moment you spontaneously explode and die.
When the Buddha became awakened under the Bodhi tree, that was the destruction of avijja (ignorance), because avijja was extinguished, so was sankhara... but he didn't die three times under the tree. So paticcasamuppada here was not a process that happened across lifetimes.

:buddha1:

I asked those two questions so as to clarify those two points. So some things seem to take place in the here and now. That's important to clarify, because what follows then isn't so hard to take in. It's been an interesting thread.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
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mikenz66
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by mikenz66 »

Vanda wrote: So some things seem to take place in the here and now. That's important to clarify, ....
As Thanissaro Bhikkhu said in the quote I gave above, it can be useful to consider things on multiple timescales, some immediate, some long-term:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p351001

:anjali:
Mike
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Vanda
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda »

Mike,

I had read that. Thank you for posting it. I completely agree. That is well written by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (as always). The level on which these principles work is of a depth that cannot be easily known or seen (it's something we begin to see over time, panna, penetrative insight).

I esp. like this part of the quote: "To get the most out of these teachings, it's best to drop any insistence, in line with one's metaphysical assumptions, that they apply to one level and not another. Instead, it's better to look at the processes as processes — true across many scales"

He also goes on to say: "So the Buddha advocated viewing a "being" simply as a process of attachment to desire, passion, delight, and craving. A being in this sense can take birth, die, and be reborn many times in the course of a day — as attachment develops for one desire, ends, and then develops for another one — to say nothing of how often it occurs during the lifetime of a physical body. This is why the processes leading to rebirth can be observed and redirected in the present moment, for — as we have already noted — the mental processes that move from moment to moment on the micro level are identical with the mental processes that move from body to body on the macro level.
...
In addition, the terms of appropriate attention... are not concerned simply with events arising and passing away in the present moment. They also focus on the causal connections among those events, connections that occur both in the immediate present and over time. .."

Postscript: In regards to Abhidhamma (mentioned in your earlier post to me), I just never made a point to concern myself with it. I follow Dhamma-vinaya. I have found that to be enough to suit my needs.
Last edited by Vanda on Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
Spiny Norman
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Spiny Norman »

waterchan wrote:Why do you find it so hard to provide a sutta reference that clearly expounds the other realms as mind-moments?
I'm not aware of any, and this is more typical: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Mr Man
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Mr Man »

waterchan wrote:
Mr Man wrote: But what is the point you are trying to make waterchan? You don't think it is worthwhile to "observe directly in the present how birth and its attendant sufferings come about and can be brought to an end"?
My point is that if someone makes bold claims regarding Theravada doctrine, I expect them to back it up with reputable Theravada sources, not personal interpretations and opinions. Especially if said person has previously claimed that the suttas should be relied upon.

If this was the Open Dhamma or Lounge subforums, I wouldn't care. But in a subforum that is supposed to be about Theravada doctrine and what the Theravada teaches, I'd expect to see a modicum of intellectual honesty.
Hi waterchan,
This is the General Theravada discussion, a sub-forum of Modern Theravada not Classical Theravada. The discussion so far fits into that, in my opinion.
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Mr Man
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
Vanda wrote: So some things seem to take place in the here and now. That's important to clarify, ....
As Thanissaro Bhikkhu said in the quote I gave above, it can be useful to consider things on multiple timescales, some immediate, some long-term:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p351001

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike
And as I said earlier: "Some might choose to reflect on rebirth in hell in this present life and some may choose to reflect on hell as something we go to in our next life and some might choose to reflect on hell in both ways".
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mikenz66
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by mikenz66 »

Exactly. And it would be a mistake, as I've pointed out, to think that the multiple lifetimes model is only found in the Theravada Commentary, and not in the writings of well-informed modern commentators (including Westerners such as Venerables Thanissaro, Bodhi, Brahm, etc), and the in-the-moment model only in modern, and not ancient, commentary.

As far as I can see, there is interesting, relevant, and practical discussion from the present day all the way back to the time of the Buddha.

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Mike
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Vanda
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda »

Mikenz66,

Yes, and I see this reflected in the suttas that I read as well. I don't dismiss commentary, but prefer to rely on the suttas. In my opinion the suttas cover everything very well, and there are plenty of them. By sticking to the suttas there is no concern if a portion of an author's view may be off or incorrect in some way. No time is needed to cross check the validity of various ideas, when you can go direct to the source. I am sure I will dip in to the commentaries at some point (modern and ancient), but immersing myself in Dhamma-vinaya and applying satipatthana while sitting, and in all other activities, has been very fruitful all these many years. The knowledge and instruction of teachers and sangha, of course, and the writings of those I find to be wise in their understanding of Dhamma (old and modern), but no heavy studies of lengthy commentaries.

I see no contradiction from what is contained in each moment in relation to the transitions of a physical rebirth.

As I posted on this thread:

The next world.. with the breakup of the body, after physical death, we then become part of the earth, insects eat our body, our minerals and composite parts are taken up by the roots of plants, physically we are transformed into a different form. …

The lower realms, hell, etc, are just that, lower realms, lower states... of the mind... So we are left with the same kamma, mind hell, etc, regardless of the transition or form we have taken. Physical death is just another moment.

This moment is a moment, physical death is a moment, the bugs eating your body that is a moment, your flesh being assimilated in to a plant is a moment. Nothing else exists but each moment.

:anjali:
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Last edited by Vanda on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
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mikenz66
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by mikenz66 »

Sure, I just wanted to point out that a number of "sutta only" people would argue strongly against moment-to-moment interpretations, so your characterisation of that model as a commentarial invention by closet Brahmins does not seem accurate.

See, for example:
PATICCA-SAMUPPADA - DEPENDENT ORIGINATION by Ajahn Brahmavamso
Dependent Origination as Process (or not).

:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Mr Man »

Here is something from Ajahn Buddhadasa:

"Heaven" and "hell" are usually viewed in physical terms. People are interested in hell as it is depicted on temple walls with its various kinds of toments. In fact these were originally nothing other than the thirty-odd forms of punishment meted out to criminals in India at the time of the Buddha. You can read about them in the history books. At least at the time of Asaka (c. 250 B.C.) these forms of punishment for criminals were still in use, so people depicted the worst of these forms of punishment in their illustrations of hell. This is the superficial view of hell. This is hell as seen by people looking without. Some people who are a little more perceptive identify hell with prison, but this is still hell without. It dosen't burn the mind like the hell within. The hell that is within is stupidity, greed, and anger; delusion, desire, and hatred; fear, worry, and anxiety. They are a kind of hell that is much more to be feared, a kind of hell that is much more difficult to avoid. The kind of hell that is depicted on temple walls is easy to be bold and unconcerned about; we think that no matter what we might do, we would never fall into it. But no-one can be bold and unconcerned about the real hell, the hell within that I have just spoken about. If we look within and truly examine it, we find it is something really terrible. It burns us without there being any sign of fire; it ties us up without appearing to; it binds and ensnares us without our knowing. This is the real hell, the hell we see when we look within. Seeing this we become frantic, desperate, and start seeking a safe refuge from it; and that refuge is easy to find and easy to put into practice. But if we go on foolishly looking only at the hell without, we just go on forever lacking a refuge.

http://www.wfbhq.org/principle-of-the-b ... ithin.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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mikenz66
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes Ajahn Buddhadasa and Ajahn Brahm have different opinions...

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MIke
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Vanda
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda »

Mike,

I wouldn't say I'd characterize it solely as a "commentarial invention", though I do think there are elements, ideas, in the commentaries that I cannot find in the suttas. That is why I decided a long time ago to follow the suttas over written comments about the suttas. To me the recorded words of the Buddha hold the strongest weight. It is "Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha" that I take refuge in, not "Authors of the Commentaries, Commentaries on the Dhamma, and Sangha".

I can list others, "sutta only" people as you call them, who believe in the "moment-to-moment" aspects of the Dhamma. Mr Man in the post above quotes a highly respected Ajahn who can be quoted, he speaks strongly of "present moment" understandings (or whatever one wishes to call it). I just see what they see when I read the suttas, and for me experientially, I find it to be true. Those that I know in the Zen tradition also confirm through their emphasis on sitting the same experiences and outlook, though the tradition and suttas are very different.

In terms of the "closet Brahmins" comment. I wouldn't say any were closeted Brahmins, I never said that, nor did I mean to imply that, I only meant that we are shaped by our background, and that effects our outlook. Look how Mahayana, Pureland, came to be, it's development. Look at Chan - Taoist ideas of China shaping it's expression. So over time various influences can alter and shape a teaching. I don't think there is a conscious effort, but people bring their background to the table and then give their commentaries, how they see it.
Last edited by Vanda on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
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Vanda
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Vanda »

Mr Man,

Thank you for the post. :)

:goodpost:

:anjali:
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“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya
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Aloka
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by Aloka »

This is from the chapter "Ajahn Sumedho Interviewed by John Baxter" in the book "Direct Realisation" Volume 3 - The Anthology ( A box set presented to students on Ajahn Sumedho's 80th birthday celebration at Amaravati Monastery UK last year, & also available at the Forest Sangha Publications website)

excerpt from under the heading: "Literalism, Metaphor and Mystery "
JB: How would you respond to being called a Buddhist modernist who has simply dropped those parts of the Buddhist tradition that aren’t in accord with contemporary secular and largely Western assumptions? Recently I was talking to a Buddhist who was keen to say that the teaching of the Buddha with regard to the various worlds and rebirth is true both in the form and spirit. I was trying to say that it is the spirit that is important, the form is often metaphor. Such an approach I have read being described as that of a Buddhist modernist.

AS: Everything I teach is in accord with the scriptures and the Four Noble Truths. That is our reference point and the teaching we use for meditation. I would not call myself a modernist, but maybe because of practice I can relate it to people’s experience in a modern time. Often when you read the suttas, many people would find those very difficult to relate to, because often the translations don’t mean much to them, or it makes it sound as if it has happened to the Buddha and to no one else, and it doesn’t reach your heart, doesn’t inspire you to realize that it is talking about your own existence. This was the Buddha’s whole purpose in teaching. It was to bring to our attention what existence really is.


JB: When I read the scriptures with their references to the gods, they are always treated in a less than reverential way. There is that lovely passage where the Buddha is speaking to the Brahma God who says: ‘I was here from the beginning, I was the Creator.’ The Buddha turns around and says something like, ‘But you don’t know that.’ It made me burst out laughing when I read that. It does seem then the metaphorical way of handling references to supernatural beings is original to the texts themselves and not imposed on them, and is to be expected, bearing in mind the way the Buddha criticizes people for claiming certainty over views or opinions which are not certain.

AS: Well of course that was the way people thought at that time. Christian cathedrals are full of angels, devils and hells. At that time people’s minds were conditioned to perceive the world through myths, symbols and metaphors. Our time on the other hand is one in which we perceive the world through theories, logic and rational thought, scientific views and psychology.

The cosmology of Buddhism however, from the highest heaven to the lowest hell, is simply a metaphor for the whole realm of human experience, from the most refined state of consciousness, which is neither perception nor non-perception, to the lowest form of misery, unmitigated pain and anguish which is the deepest hell. Though we may experience these extremes, most of our lives are lived in between that. So the animal, human and first levels of the deva realms are in that middle position. So you find that we relate to the animal kingdom a lot because we share an animal-type body, and then the Four Maharajas, the Protectors of the World, can be seen as ‘guardian angels’ or the powers of shame and moral dread which guide you from doing terrible things. So simple people take things quite literally, and the more sophisticated take them more metaphorically, but whichever way you take them, they are still quite helpful! Seriously though, to believe in deva worlds literally doesn’t seem necessary and the Buddha didn’t make that his teaching.

The Four Noble Truths is what he taught – and he said that this is all you have to know. These other things are like trying to count all the leaves in the forest. Of course the possibilities are infinite because the universe is mysterious isn’t it? As human beings living in this vast universe, we can only know so much. It is beyond our ability to comprehend it fully. We can only open to it as to a mystery. If you do try to comprehend the whole universe, what happens is that you start to mould it into a set of beliefs, or into some sort of metaphysical symbol, but you still don’t know and comprehend the universe – however poetic or sophisticated your language might be.

Religion is that which takes us to the point of opening up to that mystery. Buddhism, like Christianity, operates in a way that does that. Its whole purpose is to open the mind to the mystery, rather than to solve the mystery with some silly beliefs and perceptions that we are grasping at. We have to accept that this is all we can do in in our position as human beings.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/ass ... zation.pdf
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robertk
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Re: Hell as a mind moment

Post by robertk »

The cosmology of Buddhism however, from the highest heaven to the lowest hell, is simply a metaphor for the whole realm of human experience,
I don't think that is correct at all.
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