In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

not applicable, there is no rebirth, it is annihilation for all
4
2%
no more becoming, non-existence as we know it but not annihilation since there is no self
71
38%
existence in a buddha-field / realm
9
5%
pantheism
9
5%
citta continues in paranibbana
21
11%
a subtle existence that is ineffable, inexpressible
31
17%
don't know or agnostic about it, set-aside for now
42
22%
 
Total votes: 187

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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by User13866 »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:37 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:36 pm You can't have it both ways.
Nirvana is the state of mind of an arhat


Nirvana is unconditioned
Is the mind conditioned or unconditioned?
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by cappuccino »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:38 pm Is the mind conditioned or unconditioned?
Depends if you are an arhat or not
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:40 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:38 pm Is the mind conditioned or unconditioned?
Depends if you are an arhat or not
Arahant's mind is conditioned or unconditioned?
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by cappuccino »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:41 pm Arahant's mind is conditioned or unconditioned?
Unconditioned
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:42 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:41 pm Arahant's mind is conditioned or unconditioned?
Unconditioned
Does the mind of the Arahant not change as it persists?
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by cappuccino »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:45 pm Does the mind of the Arahant not change as it persists?
I think it’s like a mirror
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:49 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:45 pm Does the mind of the Arahant not change as it persists?
I think it’s like a mirror
It changes as it persist, arising as one thing and ceasing as another. The mind that will be for them in future doesn't exist in the present and the mind that was in the past will have ceased.
Last edited by User13866 on Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:49 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:45 pm Does the mind of the Arahant not change as it persists?
I think it’s like a mirror
Answer this then is the mind of one Arahant the same as the mind of another Arahant?
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by cappuccino »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm Answer this then is the mind of one Arahant the same as the mind of another Arahant?
Yes, nirvana is the same
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by Mahabrahma »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm
cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:49 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:45 pm Does the mind of the Arahant not change as it persists?
I think it’s like a mirror
Answer this then is the mind of one Arahant the same as the mind of another Arahant?
Each Arhat is special in their own way. But this thread has mostly discussed their commenalities.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:58 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm Answer this then is the mind of one Arahant the same as the mind of another Arahant?
Yes, nirvana is the same
Love is not an iceblock self. Nibbana is a Stream. Why do you think Buddhists are so adamant on calling it a Stream even if it is the same Stream? What changes, what stays the same? Do you at least agree that there are infinite varieties in Nibbana?
Last edited by Mahabrahma on Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

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...
Last edited by User13866 on Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:05 pm Do you at least agree that there are infinite varieties in Nibbana?
The unconditioned state is empty and pure
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by User13866 »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:58 pm
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm Answer this then is the mind of one Arahant the same as the mind of another Arahant?
Yes, nirvana is the same
I am sure you see how this doesn't work.

The mind of one Arahant is not the same thing as the mind of another.

If these minds were unconditioned then there can be no difference in them because the unconditioned can not be conditioned by anything external, it is not affected by anything and it's thusness is just that.

If the mind of an arahant is unconditioned then the mind of all Arahants past, present & future already exist because the unconditioned doesn't arise & cease.
“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”

https://suttacentral.net/an3.47/en/bodhi
Furthermore you then also assert that Arahants all have a hive-mind if you assert that there is only one unconditioned element or

Alternatively you assert that there are many unconditioned elements but then you must admit that these are different in that they are not of one and the same Arahant and so differently conditioned.

Not to mention that this is entirely heretical as to theravada where that which is called mind consciousness or intellect is dependently originated.
Last edited by User13866 on Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Arahants, Compassion, and Suffering

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:10 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:05 pm Do you at least agree that there are infinite varieties in Nibbana?
The unconditioned state is empty and pure
And is not Emptiness made up of infinite varieties that are to be called "pure". Emptiness is not a void devoid of freedom, but the giver of it, hence the unconditioned.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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