Buddhism and memory

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
samsarayoga
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by samsarayoga »

The goal of Buddhism is to defeat samsara. The karmic memory is stored in samsara. An arahat is someone who is only interested in defeating samsara and nothing else. They don't crave respect and followers.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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zerotime
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by zerotime »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:50 am Sati (mindfulness) is a particular application of memory, but it doesn't seem to describe the broader sense of how we remember past events, or the role of memory in sanna (perception).
agree. Memory would be a reconstruction involving sati and sanna. The role of the memories is subdued to sati and sañña. Our memories are limited in this same life, and not mention about previous lives. The progress wouldn't be directly related with the quantity of memories but with what we do with the mind contents when they arise. And then the quantities and precision of memories could be in a second place.

When some people talk about learning to leave behind this world, it also means leaving behind our memories. Because the world exists in our mind like memories, mind-images.

This is a related paper about memory, satti and sañña:
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... 20Kuan.pdf
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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:03 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:51 am Sati?

Memory of past lives?
The relationship between Sati and past lives can be utilized to reflect on the concept of memory.

I would be happy to be corrected, but the function of memory seems inseparable from the "one life model" in the sense that "biological" birth marks a beginning, a blank slate, and a context of what life conventionally means. In that particular context, the meaning of "life" is associated with a historical era, of which any claims about past memories would be contested, or not being empirically witnessed/verified by another who functions in the same historical era.

So, in the practice of Satipatthana, what would be the utility of the modern concept of memory?
I'm not sure what you mean here. I think in the practice of Satipatthana, one remembers to direct one's attention and to think in the ways which are specified. What that's got to do with past lives, I don't know.
form
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by form »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:50 am
form wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:40 am
Bundokji wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:36 am The aim of the Buddha's teachings is to end suffering/stress. The teachings talks about the mind, Kamma, self view, cause and effect, past lives ...etc all of which memory plays central role, and yet, as far as i know, the term "memory" has not been explicitly mentioned or included in the teachings.

Why?
Memory is mindfulness
Sati (mindfulness) is a particular application of memory, but it doesn't seem to describe the broader sense of how we remember past events, or the role of memory in sanna (perception).
The Buddha also mentioned memorising the Dhamma, then examine and test it, discuss it with the right people. All these requires memory.
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:19 am I'm not sure what you mean here. I think in the practice of Satipatthana, one remembers to direct one's attention and to think in the ways which are specified. What that's got to do with past lives, I don't know.
The first abhiññā is remembering ones former abodes - pubbe-nivāsanussati. Also the term paṭṭhāna which can be translated as "the way" can be contrasted with paccaya, which is used to explain conditional relations in Paticcasamuppada, where nama-rupa is a niddana.

In the forum, stories about people who remembered their past lives were shared to possibly increase faith? but i am not sure if these records has anything in common with the abhiññās or the way the term Sati is used. It would also trigger interesting thoughts/reflections on how to practice Satipatthana, especially when attention and perception are analyzed as part of nama as per SN 12.2.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
justindesilva
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by justindesilva »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:19 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:03 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:51 am Sati?

Memory of past lives?
The relationship between Sati and past lives can be utilized to reflect on the concept of memory.

I would be happy to be corrected, but the function of memory seems inseparable from the "one life model" in the sense that "biological" birth marks a beginning, a blank slate, and a context of what life conventionally means. In that particular context, the meaning of "life" is associated with a historical era, of which any claims about past memories would be contested, or not being empirically witnessed/verified by another who functions in the same historical era.

So, in the practice of Satipatthana, what would be the utility of the modern concept of memory?
I'm not sure what you mean here. I think in the practice of Satipatthana, one remembers to direct one's attention and to think in the ways which are specified. What that's got to do with past lives, I don't know.
In this regard Mn36 Mahasaccakasutra has an an explanation to the effect that one improves memory by suppressed sensual pleasures. It is explained with similies, too long for me to explain but to be ventured with a downloading.
It also explains the efforts of lord budda experienced to attain jhana and sati in remembering in stages of phases of past.
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zerotime
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by zerotime »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:19 pm In this regard Mn36 Mahasaccakasutra has an an explanation to the effect that one improves memory by suppressed sensual pleasures. It is explained with similies, too long for me to explain but to be ventured with a downloading.
It also explains the efforts of lord budda experienced to attain jhana and sati in remembering in stages of phases of past.
according the previous linked paper, one explanation would be that the wholesome/unwholesome characteristics could condition the improvement of memory because the relation with Sati. I'm not sure if this is a complete explanation because the arising of memories is developed quite outside of control. Arising of memories can be so unexpected like the arising of any thing in Reality.

However, there is no doubt the wholesome/unwholesome factors can facilitate or block the attention until a point of an "apparent" forgetfulness. Another issue could be to explain how it happens, because that same blocking also implies that some contact was established, although later it was "denied". This goes so fast then who knows.

Anyway, one could speculate if in a total absence of unwholesome factors, the amount of available memories could be really bigger.

This is a very interesting issue.
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Radix
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:15 am To put it differently. There is a lot of emphasis in the Buddha's teachings on the relationship between self view and suffering.

There seem to be a relationship between our feeling of self continuity and memory. Our ability to recall past events gives us the impression that there is somehow an enduring self through time. And yet, this seemingly obvious link do not seem to be addressed directly in the teachings.
What was the Buddha's conception of time?

I quickly googled it and it turns out there exist several studies on this topic. It stands to reason that if the Buddha's conception of time was different than the one we're used to nowadays, then he would also have a different approach to memory than we do. And not only the Buddha, but people in that time in general.



(As a matter of special interest, a linguistic excursion is in place as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_aspect

Originally, language didn't have tenses, but only aspect. By aspect, the action expressed by the verb is either already completed (perfect) or still taking place (imperfect). The system of tenses (past, present, future) developed later and was superimposed on the aspect system. It's beyond the scope of this post to elaborate on the way one's particular language shapes one's conception of time, but suffice to say it does so in fundamental ways.)
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samsarayoga
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by samsarayoga »

Time doesn't exist. Einstein is a liar. Kala chakra is samsara. The wheel of time.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Bundokji »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:16 pm Time doesn't exist. Einstein is a liar. Kala chakra is samsara. The wheel of time.
Are you referring to the chakra where Mara entered Ven. Moggallāna's body? If so, how would you say that it does not exist?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Bundokji »

Radix wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:20 pm What was the Buddha's conception of time?
That is an interesting question. SN 22.62 speaks of three pathways of language:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins. What three?

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“These, bhikkhus, are the three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins.

“Bhikkhus, even Vassa and Bañña of Ukkala, proponents of noncausality, of the inefficacy of action, and of nihilism, did not think that these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description should be criticized or scorned. For what reason? Because they fear blame, attack, and condemnation.”
The sutta indicates that the three pathways of language existed or were used during the Buddha's time. Maybe the shift from orality to writing can help shed light on modern memory in contrast to Sati?

Spacial memory, which is linked to our modern conception of time, is not unlike the act of writing. A written book presents a self-contained body of knowledge that discusses what is outside it. The author is known through his ideas which are shared through aggregating symbols that can be re-aggregating and realigned in myriad ways. Space between words is what gives them meanings, same thing can be said about paragraphs, pages, chapters ...etc. The page is a "blank slate", an emptiness of some sort that would allow for meaning to emerge. Also writing can be linked to doubt, which is a mark of relying on memory, and is a tool for retrieving and accumulating. Most meditation practices described their methods in opposing terms to this act of accumulation that modern memory relies on, which can also be linked metaphorically to greed, fear and lack of trust.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
samsarayoga
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by samsarayoga »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:34 pm
Are you referring to the chakra where Mara entered Ven. Moggallāna's body? If so, how would you say that it does not exist?
You make no sense. Are you strawmaning me? I said time doesn't exist and Einstein is a liar.

Very interesting story tho, I read it here: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 64558.html
Māra was thinking that “this bhikkhu has been saying: ‘Evil Māra... get out, don't you give trouble to the Tathāgata! Don't you try to give trouble to the disciple of the Tathāgata. Don't you try to bring trouble upon yourself and suffer the consequences for a long time,’ without seeing me at all.” He was also of the impression that even the Buddha would not have the power to notice him, leave alone His disciple.

Whereupon, Mahā Moggallāna made it plain to Mara: “Evil Māra, I know you and I know what has been going on in your mind... don't you think that I have no power to know about your thought. You are Evil Mara, you have been presently thinking I know nothing about you, when I said those words. You have been thinking that even the Tathāgata would not have the power to notice you, leave alone a disciple like me. Isn't that what was going on in your mind?”

He does not seem to have any sense of shame and dread of consequences of evil acts. It would, therefore, be wise, in the circumstances, to let him know that we were relatives by blood and to make him meek and sober before he can be persuaded to leave.
So did the Buddha kill the Mara, or did he die on his own?
Fire does not make any effort to burn the foolish person. It is the foolish person who gets himself burnt by touching the fire. Just as the foolish person gets himself burnt by touching the fire, so will you be causing to be burnt yourself by offending the Buddha.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
Bundokji
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Bundokji »

samsarayoga wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:48 pm So did the Buddha kill the Mara, or did he die on his own?
It seems that offending the Buddha accelerated his death and being reborn in hell, but the Buddha did not kill him.

Would you say that abhiññā is where Ven. Mahā Moggallāna teaches whereas memory is where Ven. Sāriputta teaches?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Pulsar
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Our ability to recall past events gives us the impression that there is somehow an enduring self through time. And yet, this seemingly obvious link do not seem to be addressed directly in the teachings.
Underlying Tendency is major part of the teaching. Is this not so? Imprints left by past actions? past tendencies, that influence current tendencies?
Regards :candle:
Bundokji
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Re: Buddhism and memory

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:39 am OP wrote
Our ability to recall past events gives us the impression that there is somehow an enduring self through time. And yet, this seemingly obvious link do not seem to be addressed directly in the teachings.
Underlying Tendency is major part of the teaching. Is this not so? Imprints left by past actions? past tendencies, that influence current tendencies?
Regards :candle:
Ven. Thanissaro usually translates Anusaya as "obsessions" whereas Ve. Bodhi translates it as "underlying tendency". I found that thinking of them as obsessions focuses more on the behavioral aspect or manifestations, whereas underlying tendencies refers to the modern conception of memory/psyche where intention behind the action is usually assumed/inferred. The idea of imprints or marks are often used to trace back an action to its source, including crimes and fidelity of sexual acts, such as testing the DNA of a baby to determine his biological father.

Also underlying tendencies has to do with hiding what is unpleasant which is enabled by the earth element. The apparent or relative solidity of the earth element makes the more ethereal nature of thoughts inaudible, so i can smile in your face while cursing you in my head. The earth element is also used to hide dead bodies from the public sphere. Such divisions are essential to the notion of truth, where it is assumed that the more truthful an action is, the more coherent or predictable it would be through the line of time.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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