Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Is this something the Buddha already finalised on his first day of enlightenment or something he has gradually refined throughout his spiritual career and finalise only in his later years?

His first discourse:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Other translations:
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11

JohnK wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:28 am SN 56.11

To achieve enlightenment, the Buddha had to fullfill the duties carried by each truth:
This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.'
'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned'
'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'
'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed’.

form wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:01 am Is this something the Buddha already finalised on his first day of enlightenment or something he has gradually refined throughout his spiritual career and finalise only in his later years?

It depends on what you mean by the Buddha's "spiritual career". According to the suttas, it was formulated by the time he started teaching others, as it appears in classic form in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. But I think it is merely tradition which places that sutta as the first teaching, and there are grounds to doubt that it was. And he might, of course, have been aware of the importance of some of the path factors prior to his enlightenment, but the suttas do not mention that at all. The traditionalist approach seems to be that the first formulation of the path was presented entire to the group of five as being a one-off realisation, and then did not change throughout the rest of the Buddha's ministry.

My memory may be wrong, but doesn't he teach a group of students before he forms the official buddha dhamma sangha, and thus before the first sermon?

Kondanna was the first Arahant, but between Gotama's attaining of Enlightenment and the first sermon he does run into various people.

Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:39 am And he might, of course, have been aware of the importance of some of the path factors prior to his enlightenment, but the suttas do not mention that at all.

The above is incorrect. In the Buddha’s description of his progress towards enlightenment the development of right thought/resolve is described (renunciation, non-ill will, harmlessness), and the establishment of mindfulness is confirmed.
Also the process of right effort is described.

"As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.
[...]
"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with renunciation, abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with renunciation. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with non-ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with non-ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmlessness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmfulness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmlessness.”
[…]
"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. “
[…]
“I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... “—MN 19

paul wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:36 am

Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:39 am And he might, of course, have been aware of the importance of some of the path factors prior to his enlightenment, but the suttas do not mention that at all.

The above is incorrect. In the Buddha’s description of his progress towards enlightenment the development of right thought/resolve is described (renunciation, non-ill will, harmlessness), and the establishment of mindfulness is confirmed.

"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with renunciation, abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with renunciation. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with non-ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with non-ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmlessness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmfulness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmlessness.”
[…]
"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. “
[…]
“I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... “—MN 19

Yes, you're right - thanks. I should have said that in the period when he was studying under other teachers, whatever qualities he developed were not labelled as path factors at the time. But they are obviously the same.

Thanks all for your replies.

Guess we wont really know the details. But the four truths and their functions are quite clear.

When the four noble truths are mentioned in MN 19 it means right view, so all the factors of the NEP are covered there, some in incipient form, and right thought is an incipient form of right speech, action and livelihood, as they are its practical expression.

Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:39 am According to the suttas, it was formulated by the time he started teaching others...

SN 12.65 appears to say it was discovered prior to the teaching career:

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, before my Awakening, when I was just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the realization came to me... In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:59 am

Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:39 am According to the suttas, it was formulated by the time he started teaching others...

SN 12.65 appears to say it was discovered prior to the teaching career:

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, before my Awakening, when I was just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the realization came to me... In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Yes, you're right - see my post in response to Paul, above.