neutering a cat?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sam Vara
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by Sam Vara »

chownah wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:03 pm Some people know that they do not "own" their pets but this does not say anything about the issue of those who have a feeling of ownership and who neuter cats under the auspices of ownership and what it means from their viewpoint to "own" a sentient being.
I guess each viewpoint is different, but as a general rule in my country the assumption of legal ownership of an animal confers the right (in the absence of any over-riding legal issue) to have it neutered. For most people, neutering is part of the process that turns an unsocialised bundle of instincts into an animal that is fit to live in the house and does not cause problems for its owner, other humans, and itself. The same would apply to dog-training, without which all dogs are a nuisance and many are dangerous. The right to neuter is also conferred by other circumstances (i.e. the state can compel owners to neuter certain breeds of dogs, and charities neuter strays and foundlings); and rights conferred by ownership are fairly strongly constrained by humanitarian law.
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

Volo wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:09 pm I think castrating an animal would come under "injuring beings":
MN 135 wrote:Here, student, some man or woman is given to injuring beings with the hand, with a clod, with a stick, or with a knife. Because of performing and undertaking such action, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation…But if instead he comes back to the human state, then wherever he is reborn he is sickly. This is the way, student, that leads to sickliness, namely, one is given to injuring beings with the hand, with a clod, with a stick, or with a knife.
Of course, the cat is given a painkiller, etc (all such factors would make bad kamma less severe), but the injury is obviously there. If a person has good intention sterilizing animals, then s/he would probably accumulate both positive and negative kamma.
It should be noted the spayed/neutered animals live longer healthier lives, because they are fixed. If you do something that gives an animal a longer healthier life, is that really "injuring"? I would say not.
dharmacorps
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by dharmacorps »

This is a good point. Un-neutered animals live much shorter lives. Outdoors cats live much shorter lives. By having them indoors and fixed, far more good is being done for them, objectively.
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Volo
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by Volo »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:42 pm It should be noted the spayed/neutered animals live longer healthier lives, because they are fixed. If you do something that gives an animal a longer healthier life, is that really "injuring"? I would say not.
Sounds like a good thing to do. Have you already neutered yourself to get all these benefits?
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by chownah »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:50 pm This is a good point. Un-neutered animals live much shorter lives. Outdoors cats live much shorter lives. By having them indoors and fixed, far more good is being done for them, objectively.
Whether a longer life is had at the loss of reproductive capacity (and at the loss of other possible qualities which are altered when reproductive capacity is lost) constitutes something which is "far more good" is not objective....it is subjective. It is the pet owner assuming that their values are the same as the pet's values. I think it is a case of anthropocentric thinking. Also, I think volo's comment brings an interesting and pertinent angle with which to view this issue. Should children be neutered at pre-adolescence to gain these benefits? (obviously rhetorical question but I think it is revealing of a deeper understanding of the issue). There may come a time in the future (next week?) when through dna based cloning the ability to reproduce sexually will not be needed....perhaps then pre-adolescent children will be neutered for their benefit.
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bodom
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by bodom »

Getting cats fixed is the compassionate thing to do. The animals themselves do not know the benefits it brings to them but as humans we do.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
chownah
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by chownah »

Just another thought: Is a pet really just a sentient ornament or a sentient source of entertainment? We feel free to rearrange our nick-nacks and the artistic among us might even customize some of them to enhance the aesthetic feelings they evoke....might this be where SOME pet owners are coming from when they keep a pet and so neutering just enhances their pleasure of ownership?

Isn't this how some humans behave with their cars?....mostly male humans? If those same male humans had been neutered as pre-adolescents might they not be freed from that compulsion and thus have better lives?
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bodom
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by bodom »

All of my pets are rescues. They are with me because i took them off of the street homeless, abused and hungry. They are not here for entertainment. They are family.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

Volo wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:01 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:42 pm It should be noted the spayed/neutered animals live longer healthier lives, because they are fixed. If you do something that gives an animal a longer healthier life, is that really "injuring"? I would say not.
Sounds like a good thing to do. Have you already neutered yourself to get all these benefits?
Yes, I'm now 200 years old. :smile:
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:42 pmIt should be noted the spayed/neutered animals live longer healthier lives, because they are fixed. If you do something that gives an animal a longer healthier life, is that really "injuring"? I would say not.
dharmacorps wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:50 pmThis is a good point. Un-neutered animals live much shorter lives. Outdoors cats live much shorter lives. By having them indoors and fixed, far more good is being done for them, objectively.
They may be healthier and live longer. But are they happier? What about their meaning of life?
By being sterilized, they lose what they would otherwise build their lives around.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:47 amWhether a longer life is had at the loss of reproductive capacity (and at the loss of other possible qualities which are altered when reproductive capacity is lost) constitutes something which is "far more good" is not objective....it is subjective. It is the pet owner assuming that their values are the same as the pet's values.

I think it is a case of anthropocentric thinking.
Absolutely.
chownah wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:54 amJust another thought: Is a pet really just a sentient ornament or a sentient source of entertainment? We feel free to rearrange our nick-nacks and the artistic among us might even customize some of them to enhance the aesthetic feelings they evoke....might this be where SOME pet owners are coming from when they keep a pet and so neutering just enhances their pleasure of ownership?
Of course.
For such pet owners, the animal is a valuable but expendable and replaceable (!) extension of themselves (ie. an extension of the owner). Such owners don't think of their pet animals as individual beings.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

binocular wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:20 am
They may be healthier and live longer. But are they happier?
I asked the cat and she responded yes she's happier that she gets to live a longer healthier life. :smile:
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Volo
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by Volo »

seeker242 wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:07 pm I asked the cat and she responded yes she's happier that she gets to live a longer healthier life. :smile:
There are serious doubts on whether animals have the same feeling of time as we do (they live more in "today", than in the future or past), and "longer life" might be quite a vague term for them.
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

Volo wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:27 pm
seeker242 wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:07 pm I asked the cat and she responded yes she's happier that she gets to live a longer healthier life. :smile:
There are serious doubts on whether animals have the same feeling of time as we do (they live more in "today", than in the future or past), and "longer life" might be quite a vague term for them.
"Meaning of life" would also be quite a vague term for them, as that is a human idea to begin with.
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by sentinel »

The question is the same , who grants us the rights to eat (animals) meats ? Of course , before that we have to slaughter them . Either by us or someone else .
However , in neutering case , it's a dilemma when we take the animals as an equal status .
Being compassionate is one thing , still ,
I think , one has to bear with the karmic retribution if there are no better alternative .
You always gain by giving
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