neutering a cat?

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dharmacorps
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by dharmacorps »

All beings fear death... Do you seriously believe any animal would choose a shorter life over a longer one?

To echo Bodom, cats are our family. There is no evidence that neutering humans results in a longer lifespan, so that argument doesn't hold up.

Plus, it doesn't matter-- we can't ask our cats what they want, so its up to your discernment. If it really makes more sense to you to not fix your cat, have it live a shorter life, and likely breed more, probably feral kittens who will largely have brutal short lives, then that is your choice.
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

dharmacorps wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:26 pmAll beings fear death... Do you seriously believe any animal would choose a shorter life over a longer one?
A short life lived in freedom, or a long life lived in a golden cage ...

Better to die fighting, than to perish on one's knees.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Sam Vara
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:50 pm
dharmacorps wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:26 pmAll beings fear death... Do you seriously believe any animal would choose a shorter life over a longer one?
A short life lived in freedom, or a long life lived in a golden cage ...

Better to die fighting, than to perish on one's knees.
I might be mistaken, of course, but I tend to see that kind of reflective autonomy as applying solely to humans, and attributable to other animals only by human projection. The Buddha seemed clear that animals were qualitatively different, and at least part of that difference seems to be that animals are entirely at the mercy of their external environment and internal drives. Whereas most humans can make an informed decision as to the desirability of abstract choices, animals lack the language in which such choices must be phrased. My cat lacks a word for his testicles, let alone lifestyle choices to do with their retention. I tend to see animals as nothing more than suffering and ease.
chownah
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by chownah »

From the WebMD:
And having a cat that’s spayed or neutered will make your life easier.
I think alot of why people neuter their cats is captured in the simple truth above.

It is possible to sterilize a cat by cutting its tubes necessary for reproduction but this will not bring about the behavioral changes desired by people who don't really like to be around cats the way nature made them.....so they opt for surgical procedures which produces an animal capable of being a resepticle worthy of their "love".
chownah
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:52 amIt is possible to sterilize a cat by cutting its tubes necessary for reproduction but this will not bring about the behavioral changes desired by people who don't really like to be around cats the way nature made them.....so they opt for surgical procedures which produces an animal capable of being a resepticle worthy of their "love".
To be fair, possibly many people don't know that such sterilization procedures are even possible in cats. Our cats had already been sterilized the usual way long before I have found out that there are actually different types of sterilization/neutering/spaying/castration possible for cats. The veterinarian has not explained or offered any of the options when we brought the cats in.

The sterilization procedures you describe: For male cats, a vasecotmy doesn't seem to make much of a difference in behavior between intact and vasectomized males.* But a hysterctomy (the feline equivalent to a tubal ligation) in females does, as the female cat is sexually active, but does not become pregnant. Mating season in cats is not limited to late winter. Female cats mate until they become pregnant, however many times it takes. A female cat whose kittens are taken away while she is still nursing them, will soon after that go into heat again, and this can happen several times a year. So this means that a female cat who doesn't become pregnant will be extremely sexually active throughout the whole year. And this is also not the way nature made them. The natural way, a female cat will mate once a year, perhaps twice. A female cat that doesn't become pregnant will mate many more times, she will become hypersexualized. That's a lot of suffering, not to mention greater probability for the transmission of various diseases.


*However, if a vasectomized male cat lives among infertile, continually sexually active females, then the male will become hypersexualized too. When things are left to nature, at least the cats (males and females) get some respite from the stress of mating. (Feline females can copulate only when they are in heat; otherwise, copulation is not physically possible, unlike in humans.) But to surgically alter the cats and make them be in a constant state of heat and pursuit -- that is cruel.

Here, the natural mating seasons for cats is coming to an end. Our intact male is still crazy; roams around, barely eats anything, is restless, who knows what parasites and diseases he picked up. But at least things will cool down a bit once the females are pregnant. But to imagine that he would be as restless as he is now all year long, for the rest of his life -- that would be cruel.
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

The reason why people sterilize animals is because animal shelters euthanize an estimated 2.7 million cats and dogs annually because there aren’t enough homes for them. It is not a good thing to contribute to that number by allowing pets to reproduce.
chownah
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by chownah »

seeker242 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:46 pm The reason why people sterilize animals is because animal shelters euthanize an estimated 2.7 million cats and dogs annually because there aren’t enough homes for them. It is not a good thing to contribute to that number by allowing pets to reproduce.
You are right that this is why SOME people sterilize animals....but clearly not all people sterilize their pets because if they did then there wouldn't be all those animals euthanized at animal shelters.

You are right that this is why SOME people sterilize their pets....but clearly there are other reasons as well (Just one of several reasons from WebMD: "And having a cat that’s spayed or neutered will make your life easier.")

A question for people who are bothered by 2.7 million pets being euthanized annually (in the usa alone I think and this doesn't count people who euthanize at home): It seems that you suffer because of those deaths. Is this suffering which you endure the suffering the buddha meant when he taught that death is suffering? Do any of you adopt pets from those shelters in an attempt to eliminate your own suffering by thinking that you have helped to end that animal's suffering by adopting it?
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

chownah wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:15 am
seeker242 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:46 pm The reason why people sterilize animals is because animal shelters euthanize an estimated 2.7 million cats and dogs annually because there aren’t enough homes for them. It is not a good thing to contribute to that number by allowing pets to reproduce.
You are right that this is why SOME people sterilize animals....but clearly not all people sterilize their pets because if they did then there wouldn't be all those animals euthanized at animal shelters.
That's true. Some people are irresponsible pet owners.
A question for people who are bothered by 2.7 million pets being euthanized annually (in the usa alone I think and this doesn't count people who euthanize at home): It seems that you suffer because of those deaths. Is this suffering which you endure the suffering the buddha meant when he taught that death is suffering?
It's quite appropriate to have compassion for those animals and to not contribute to that suffering by being an irresponsible pet owner.
chownah
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by chownah »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:43 am
chownah wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:15 am
seeker242 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:46 pm The reason why people sterilize animals is because animal shelters euthanize an estimated 2.7 million cats and dogs annually because there aren’t enough homes for them. It is not a good thing to contribute to that number by allowing pets to reproduce.
You are right that this is why SOME people sterilize animals....but clearly not all people sterilize their pets because if they did then there wouldn't be all those animals euthanized at animal shelters.
That's true. Some people are irresponsible pet owners.
A question for people who are bothered by 2.7 million pets being euthanized annually (in the usa alone I think and this doesn't count people who euthanize at home): It seems that you suffer because of those deaths. Is this suffering which you endure the suffering the buddha meant when he taught that death is suffering?
It's quite appropriate to have compassion for those animals and to not contribute to that suffering by being an irresponsible pet owner.
I think you missed the point of my question. It has nothing to do with being responsible or not. It has to do with people who are bothered by the euthanizing of animals. I'm asking if their discomfort is one manifestation of the buddha's teaching that death is suffering.....that is to ask whether the buddha's teaching on death being suffering apply to the suffering which some people undergo when they think or hear about the euthenization of animals (or the death of any animal for any reason)?
And I also asked a related question:Do any of you adopt pets from those shelters in an attempt to eliminate your own suffering by thinking that you have helped to end that animal's suffering by adopting it?
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Sam Vara
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by Sam Vara »

chownah wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:23 pm It has to do with people who are bothered by the euthanizing of animals. I'm asking if their discomfort is one manifestation of the buddha's teaching that death is suffering.....that is to ask whether the buddha's teaching on death being suffering apply to the suffering which some people undergo when they think or hear about the euthenization of animals (or the death of any animal for any reason)?
I don't know whether that was what the Buddha intended by saying that death is suffering, but I'm certainly made unhappy by the death of animals, as nearly all are by the death of other people.
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
I guess it depends on how we are made aware of the fact of a particular death, and what the circumstances are. I could conceive of situations where I could be relieved by the death of an animal.
Do any of you adopt pets from those shelters in an attempt to eliminate your own suffering by thinking that you have helped to end that animal's suffering by adopting it?
Yes, I've done that, although I wouldn't put it in those terms myself.
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:23 pmAnd I also asked a related question: Do any of you adopt pets from those shelters in an attempt to eliminate your own suffering by thinking that you have helped to end that animal's suffering by adopting it?
So this seems to be about feeling pity, and pity being an uncomfortable emotion. So uncomfortable, that people can go to great lengths to alleviate it (such as by adopting animals from shelters).
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

chownah wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:15 am I think you missed the point of my question. It has nothing to do with being responsible or not. It has to do with people who are bothered by the euthanizing of animals.

And I also asked a related question:Do any of you adopt pets from those shelters in an attempt to eliminate your own suffering
I don't think either of those questions are relevant. No matter what the answer is to either of them it doesn't matter. Regardless of how they can be answered, it's still always appropriate to have compassion for those animals and to not contribute to the suffering caused by pet overpopulation.
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:50 pmI don't think either of those questions are relevant. No matter what the answer is to either of them it doesn't matter.
Oh, but it matters, because there is an important difference between pity and compassion. It matters in terms of cultivating one's mind.
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seeker242
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by seeker242 »

binocular wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:55 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:50 pmI don't think either of those questions are relevant. No matter what the answer is to either of them it doesn't matter.
Oh, but it matters, because there is an important difference between pity and compassion. It matters in terms of cultivating one's mind.
Actually, it doesn't. It will always be inappropriate to contribute to suffering, regardless of how one is or isn't cultivating one's mind.
binocular
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Re: neutering a cat?

Post by binocular »

It is by cultivating pity that one contributes to one's own suffering.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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