Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:45 pm
auto wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:38 pm
hard jhana person is right if the moment last very short time. Some call it a blimp or going out or something like that a'la practioners like Daniel Ingram, i don't know who thought out this term.
Sounds unsubstantiated.
Visuddhimagga,
p793 wrote:18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
That isn’t Jhana.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:52 pm
auto wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:45 pm

Sounds unsubstantiated.
Visuddhimagga,
p793 wrote:18. Herein, (i) What is the attainment of cessation? It is the non-occurrence of
consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation.
That isn’t Jhana.
You are off the tangent. You claimed there is no sound in jhana, so i drew possible line where it could be true, which is a non-occurrence of consciousness, and how you are off tanget is that you don't understand what i said by responding to me it isn't jhana, yea it isn't it is cessation, daa.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Flipping the pages of first Samyutta, in the sutta on Stone splinter, Buddha is called
  • "a beast of burden"
bearing the burden? He did not bear the burden of the 5 aggregates. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_22.html 
What was the burden that Buddha bore? He was the Tathagata, fully released. The awakened Buddha almost decided not to communicate, what he had awoken to.
Brahma sahampathi convinced him otherwise.
Sariputta was assigned with training of novices until they entered the stream.
Moggallana's  assignment: training them towards 4th jhana, and i wondered of the Burden of Buddha, the task of buddha, The World honoured One! the Blessed One!
  • It was not all smooth sailing for Buddha.
Some nasty and mean wanderers went around bad mouthing him. A woman accused him of impregnating her.Consider what he had to deal with, among his own followers. A very mean monk tossed a boulder at him, with the intention of killing him.https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn1.38

Early in his dispensation, newbie monks were clamoring for gifts.
That is when Buddha spoke of Son's Flesh SN 12.63.
When one resorts to greed, one resorts to eating one's son's flesh? 
Many think of the simile as a metaphor for overindulgence in physical food. Buddha meant it also as an overindulgence in the strings of sensual pleasures. 
He also used the opportunity to point out that any unmindful contact leads to suffering, via pathway of arisen intention and generation of a new consciousness.
  • Consciousness feeds on consciousness
 How often do we pay attention to it, when we make contact with the sensory world? 
The challenge of DO? is the reversal of DO, dismantling of  the links that lead to suffering, e.g. when contact ceases, then feeling ceases.  Unsavoury intentions arise due to feelings raised by contacts with the sensory world. By practising the 8-fold path, one learns to do away with ignorant contacts, or contacts laden with longing.
In SN 22.80 Alms gatherer, the bad conduct of some monks, leads to an amazing teaching. Buddha's most inspiring teachings arise out of such situations.
In SN 22.81 Parileyya: Buddha walks away from quarreling monks, and an elephant takes care of
the Buddha.
On another note, It was kind of the moderators to visit the thread on Jhana at my request, and will respond to them over time. Spring has arrived, a beautiful time of the year. Country gets laden with blossoms. It reminds me of the flowers laden at the feet of the Buddha. l Took a break from social media, to spend time by the seashore.
The waves like inbreath and outbreath have a calming effect, leading to a sorrowless state. When all mental proliferations cease, it truly has a nibbanic effect. 
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Mikenz66 wrote
That would seem odd for "A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism".  To move to "connections to other paths"
Is this the first time anyone suggested on DW that a conversation be moved to "connections to other paths?"
In fact on this very same thread Ven. Dhammnando suggested that a conversation happening right here be moved to  "Connections to other paths". To clarify himself he reposted my OP, which was very kind of him. Under that reposting on March 27/2021 he also wrote 
Anyone wishing to discuss jhāna in relation to Hindu methods are invited to start a new thread in Connections to other Paths.
Pl read the OP again.
The OP is about MN 117. The jhana involved relies on the aforementioned path. I admitted in the OP my own flaw, that I find it harder to stick to Right speech as defined in MN 117. Speech is an impulsive thing, sometimes folks identify a joke as a sign of aggression.
Thus speech can be tricky. "Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder." Aggression could be likewise.  In fact a friend on DW on another thread, once wrote
Neither for Pulsar (who was just joking), or for myself (who could care less).
Speech is not always well thought out, hence it is more likely to be flawed, I admit.

Ceiswer et al insists on this thread, the Jhāna are not unique to Buddha.
Do you think the jhana that belongs in the 8-fold path was practiced in pre-Buddha times? This thread is based on the Pali canon.
Can you bring me a single sutta from the Pali canon, where the text identifies anything other than the fine material jhanas as jhana?
Pali canon is not without flaws, but this is one instance where the compilers maintained consistency.
  • In the Pali canon only the four fine material jhanas, via which Buddha awoke are called Jhana.
Commentaries may present other narratives, but this thread is not about the commentaries.
Do you believe there were pre-buddhist meditations that were compliant with the eight-fold path? If so, why is Buddha given credit for finding a path to the end of suffering?
  • End of suffering is an All or None matter in my eyes.
People interpret suttas in multiple ways.
Could it be because some do not have a firm foundation on Dependent origination unique to the Buddha? 
Recently I read Migajala sutta, SN 35.63 and it struck me that it was a teaching on Dependent Origination, even though not a single word in the sutta says so. 
In fact some folks speculate that the intention of Migajala is to deflate the conceit of those who think physical withdrawal from the world is the solution to one's woes. But folks who understand DO see it as clear teaching on Paticca Samuppada. The synopsis of the sutta may be...
One who can block the entry of nimittas, upon sight, sound etc are able to block the admission of suffering.
One lives without a companion, amidst crowds of people, on the internet, (a modern version of it might say).
Posting on the internet does not mean there is something flawed about the practitioner.
Goal of Samma sati and Samma samadhi is to 'live alone'.
The chinese translation of Migajala ends with, 
thirsty love
is a companion, and one who has given it up, is therefore called 'dwelling alone', or 'living alone'
Thirsty love in other words is craving.

I shall answer your comment regarding VSM as I find the time.
However let me remind the readers, the OP is about the 8 or 10 fold path. OP does not include commentary.
If one wants to bring up other meditations, and commentary, i also have a thread on DW viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797 called
"Misconceptions regarding Jhana"
Any meditation that does not involve Noble path, may be discussed under that thread.

With love :candle:
PS From my previous thread "Between Jhana and Satipatthana is there a big differenceviewtopic.php?f=13&t=34789 
Buddha in SN 47.6 "Do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others, Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others... Move in your own ancestral domain"
It is possible to withdraw into our ancestral domain even as we post on the www, as stated
in Migajala.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Fishing for Consciousness, a fishing expedition by Sujato,
not Bhante Sugato, attracted my attention a while ago, after a break from social media.  A break always helps to declutter the mind. Sujatho (sorry for the h, i am rather fond of it), helped me unclutter Kevaddha Sutta. He clarified why the title was written so, it had something to do with its Sihalese origins.
Sutta itself had bugged me early on, since the monk in question was visiting a variety of realms, (multiple Deva realms), and finally he met the great Brahma. I do not believe in realms that I cannot experience.
Buddha had said that Dhamma is immediate, and knowable. In Kalama he says "Check things out  for yourself", meaning don't be a blind follower.
Enuf said. Listening to Sujato, things sink in, realms in the suttas are allegorical,
(Allegory definition - the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence). With the fictional realms out of the way, the long winding sutta can be boiled down to a single solid truth.
Kevatta sutta is a teaching on Dependent Origination. The curious monk asks the teacher,
"Where do the great elements cease without remainder?"
Buddha shoots back
"Wrong question"
Subsequent to the correction by the Buddha the query reads
"Where do earth, water, fire and air no footing find?"
and the answer is 
"Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all luminous"
(A vivid description of the Arahant's domain, or the 4th jhana, where worldly consciousness ceases to be) 
Buddha continues
  • it is Where "name and form" are wholly destroyed.
We understand this to mean
  • with the cessation of consciousness,"name and form" are utterly destroyed.
B. Sujato's exposition of the text, reveals the meaning behind the text. He says
Treat the words with kindness and compassion.These words have been orally transmitted, copied over and over again. Read not the words but the intention behind the words.
Thank you B. Sujato, I've always been part of your fan club.
Apparently the monk had been practising the 4 jhanas, and had run out of steam, he is unable to destroy name and form, is frustrated. He asks the Buddha (in my own words)
Can he find the  answer in deva realms (where there is sensual pleasure) or in pre-buddhist formless realms? Can those help destroy "name and form"?
Nope,
says the Buddha
"Answer can only be found within the 4 jhanas, framed by the 8-fold path/10-fold path"
Sujato elaborates,
  • this is the Gradual Path.
This thread is about the very gradual path, not Arupa samapatthis, not meditations that existed for thousands of years before the Buddha, independent of the 8-fold path, not the meditation that Mahavira the Jain practised. 
The monk in question after gallivanting in deva realms, and the formless realms, returns to Buddha's teachings at the request of the Brahma. Brahma in fact was embarrassed by the monk's question, which he could not answer, he called the monk aside to whisper in his ear that
"only Buddha knew such things"
Poor monk after all that gallivanting, imagine the waste of time, in Arupa samapatthis!
All the monk had to do was brush up on 4 jhanas, in relation to the 8-fold path.
Perhaps he became too impatient. Jhana does not sit in a vacuum. Some folks want to snap 4 jhanas from the 8-fold path, and practice it by itself, with absolutely no relation to Samma Sati.
Good luck with that! Hard work is hard, some call it jhana-lite, rather derogatory, don't you think?
Time in the Arupa samapattis sounds like fun, many appear to be enamoured by these fancy realms.
Sujatos' talk fits right in with the intention of this thread,
not to pursue teachings of other teachers, even if it is snuck into the canon, but just that of SammaSambuddha.
With love  :candle:
PS The talk can be found under Dharma College on Youtube. Wisdom Talk Series: Under the Bodhi Tree with Sujato Bhikkhu
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:14 pm Do you think the jhana that belongs in the 8-fold path was practiced in pre-Buddha times? This thread is based on the Pali canon.
Can you bring me a single sutta from the Pali canon, where the text identifies anything other than the fine material jhanas as jhana?
Pali canon is not without flaws, but this is one instance where the compilers maintained consistency.
searched the term rūpasaññā,

Buddha before awakening is technically not a buddha. Here he refers a dimension what we should understand and also in what way.. protecting against sensual stimulation what were formerly experienced and has ceased, we should understand that dimension.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening
..
So in your own way you should practice diligence, mindfulness, and protecting the mind regarding the five kinds of sensual stimulation that I formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo attarūpehi appamādo sati cetaso ārakkho karaṇīyo.

So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away.
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe …pe…
Buddha was referring the cessation of salayatana
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:And this is how I understand the detailed meaning of this summary.
Imassa khvāhaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā saṅkhittena uddesassa uddiṭṭhassa vitthārena atthaṁ avibhattassa vitthārena atthaṁ ājānāmi.

The Buddha was referring to the cessation of the six sense fields when he said:
Saḷāyatananirodhaṁ no etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā sandhāya bhāsitaṁ:
‘So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away. You should understand that dimension where the ear … nose … tongue … body …
‘tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe, yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe …pe…
mind ceases and perception of thoughts fades away.’
yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’ti.
It does kind of mean you are inside the vacuum.. protecting against former sensual stimulation what has ceased and the understanding(pajānātī) of it is with the eye of wisdom(paññācakkhunā).
It sounds like Ceiswir idea of jhana, but it is about dimension where the salayatana is ceased. the ceasing of impingement could refer to a dimension where the sensual stimulation has ceased,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.23/en/sujato wrote: And where name and form
Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
cease with nothing left over;
asesaṁ uparujjhati;
as well as impingement and perception of form:
Paṭighaṁ rūpasaññā ca,
it’s there that the tangle is cut.”
etthesā chijjate jaṭā”ti.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

What the Buddha thought! of his teachers. Some speak of the so-called teachers of Buddha as if they were the cat's meow. Some even speak of their meditations 'The Arupa Samapatthis' as Jhana, thanks to the abhidhammikas who christened them so. Another nail in the coffin of Buddha, as Ani Sutta implies.
These meditations have been snuck into the buddhist canon, even though these were not Buddha's teachings. Yet now, there is such an appearance. A clever ploy.
  • What was Buddha's impression of these teachers?
Here we go.
About Uddaka https://suttacentral.net/sn35.103/en/sujato
An excerpt: with words modified by Pulsar
Bhikkhus, though Uddaka Ramaputta was not himself a Knowledge master he bragged,
he boasted. "I am a knowledge master."
Though he was not himself a universal conqueror he declared
"I am a universal conqueror" Though he had not excised the tumor's root, he declared "I have excised the tumor's root"
How does one become a knowledge master? by getting rid of the tumor. Read the sutta to figure out what the tumor is.
How does one become a universal conqueror? by getting rid of craving.
  • Uddaka was neither a knowledge master nor a universal conqueror, yet he boasted, he bragged
Why did the Siddharta seek them out?
  • False advertising i would say in modern parlance.
Did the youthful prince gain anything? it was just a waste of time.
He left them and started from scratch, when he remembered his experience as a child, under a rose apple tree. Rest is history. An excerpt from the Chinese version of sutta using DeepL.
And, bhikkhus! What kind of bhikkhu is the one who conquers everything? Bhikkhus!
When a bhikkhu knows the six touch points in truth, and then becomes liberated by not holding on to them, bhikkhus! Such a bhikkhu is the one who conquers everything.
Now that clearly is a teaching on Dependent Origination,
solely the discovery of the true knowledge master, the one who eradicated suffering, the universal conqueror. 
I bow to thee, My Knowledge Master! The Universal conqueror!
With love  :candle:
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Mohan Gnanathilake
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Re: Jhana

Post by Mohan Gnanathilake »

SunWuKong wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:38 pm The mind becomes more disciplined, but really, its the practice getting easier too.
May a disciplined mind brings happiness!
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:31 pm when auto wrote
Do you know what Noble Silence is?
Alex replied
You teach me :)
My admiration for AlexBrains92 is growing by leaps and bounds. He is a man of few words.
My Dearest Auto: did you know that noble silence could also mean, speaking up for a good cause "like Retro's cause here"
  • To silence the dissident voice.
but it seems, if folks approach this thread with their minds already made up that "Theravada abhidhamma did not bend the rules", no amount of good suttas (like the two that I introduced) to show how mind makes up pictures, that rupa aggregate does not mean "it is like twigs and branches" of Jeta grove.
Did not Buddha say in Alagaddupama sutta,
"Guys, get rid of your aggregates
  • (all five)
like those folks carrying twigs and branches to toss away"
I made up the quote from memory, forgive Pulsar's playful words.
If I remember right Buddha did not mean
"Get rid of your eyes, and ears and also your limbs"
in which case the hearers had to find saws, to saw off their limbs. Buddha really meant get rid of the rupa aggregate also, but not their limbs.

With love :candle:
Would-be-buddha mindfully entered the womb of his mother, he have no aggregates. He wasn't human, but had human carnal body with signs of aging and illnesses. Also the attainment of his is received after passing away or parinibbana.
In case of human beings the attainments are received within ones life without passing away because humans have aggregates what make up an identity. Sense of self is tied to this body. In order to put a perspective then the buddha is coursing as that body while human beings have that as a cultivation subject a'la illusory body.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
Would-be-buddha mindfully entered the womb of his mother, he have no aggregates. He wasn't human, but had human carnal body with signs of aging and illnesses. Also the attainment of his is received after passing away or parinibbana.
Do you mind making the English a little more clear? Are you implying the baby entered the womb of Mahamaya mindfully? First time I heard that. Is that from the suttas? or commentaries? or is that Auto's commentary?
Where did you read that the little prince had no aggregates?
You continued.
In case of human beings the attainments are received within ones life without passing away because humans have aggregates what make up an identity. Sense of self is tied to this body. In order to put a perspective then the buddha is coursing as that body while human beings have that as a cultivation subject a'la illusory body.
Can you restate this please? I can't make head or tail of the stuff you write. It is a cloudy morning here.
but there are no clouds in my head.
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:13 pm ..
Mindful and aware,
https://suttacentral.net/mn123/en/sujato wrote: ‘Mindful and aware, the being intent on awakening passed away from the host of Joyful Gods and was conceived in his mother’s womb.’
‘sato sampajāno, ānanda, bodhisatto tusitā, kāyā cavitvā mātukucchiṁ okkamī’ti.
Mindfulness is future, despite being present, in a sense that the embryo(womb) is conceived before one's body passes away and also before one enters(falls into) it.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato wrote:Supported by the six elements, an embryo is conceived.
Channaṁ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṁ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti;
The idea of conceiving embryo is well known thing amongst who are after turning body into 'third kind'.
.
knowledge and vision(ñāṇadassanāya),
https://suttacentral.net/dn10/en/sujato wrote: They understand:
So evaṁ pajānāti:
‘This body of mine is physical. It’s made up of the four primary elements, produced by mother and father, built up from rice and porridge, liable to impermanence, to wearing away and erosion, to breaking up and destruction. And this consciousness of mine is attached to it, tied to it.’
‘ayaṁ kho me kāyo rūpī cātumahābhūtiko mātāpettikasambhavo odanakummāsūpacayo aniccucchādanaparimaddanabhedanaviddhaṁsanadhammo; idañca pana me viññāṇaṁ ettha sitaṁ ettha paṭibaddhan’ti.
Consciousness is attached to the physical body. It enters from the dimension where eye and form(salayatana) is ceasing or is ceased.
.
There is also a Sutta what mentions that the soul(it, consciousness) detaches from the body during sleep. Take it with a salt since i can't find this Sutta for now. There is plenty of room for saying i said wrong things before i evolve and get better, and do so meaningfully.
The thing about getting attainment after passing away is from the notion that the devas get their attainment after passing away(from the commentarial source). We are humans so. I admit i did put a bit cart before the horse here partly due wanting to know why buddha didn't transform his physical body.
..
as you see i brought in some more ideas which i haven't bring Sutta or commentarial evidence.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Auto, I am referring to the comment you wrote in response to Kevadda sutta.
It took me a while to figure out what exactly you were saying and how it relates to Kevadda sutta
Here is what you wrote
searched the term rūpasaññā,
How did the search turn out? found anything useful?
You continued...
Buddha before awakening is technically not a buddha. Here he refers a dimension what we should understand and also in what way.. protecting against sensual stimulation what were formerly experienced and has ceased, we should understand that dimension.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:
“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening
How do you protect against sensual stimulation? How does it relate to Rupasanna?
You wrote
So in your own way you should practice diligence, mindfulness, and protecting the mind regarding the five kinds of sensual stimulation that I formerly experienced—which have passed, ceased, and perished.
I left the Pali out, I find the meditative understanding a better substitute, a neater way of negotiating Dhamma. I find English enough for me, or English should suffice for anyone who meditates, and is capable of getting rid of the signals expelled by rupasanna.
You wrote
So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away.
Buddha was referring the cessation of salayatana
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.117/en/sujato wrote:
What does cessation of salayatana mean to you?
You explain below
The Buddha was referring to the cessation of the six sense fields when he said:
Saḷāyatananirodhaṁ no etaṁ, āvuso, bhagavatā sandhāya bhāsitaṁ:
‘So you should understand that dimension where the eye ceases and perception of sights fades away. You should understand that dimension where the ear … nose … tongue … body
‘tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe, yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe …pe…
mind ceases and perception of thoughts fades away.’
yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’ti.
OK here I retained the Pali, since it made sense to me, with my sparse understanding of Pali, also since it appears to help you.
At this point, you express your own take:
It does kind of mean you are inside the vacuum, protecting against former sensual stimulation what has ceased and the understanding(pajānātī) of it is with the eye of wisdom(paññācakkhunā).
  • What makes you think the sutta is referring to a vacuum?
You write:
It sounds like Ceiswir idea of jhana, but it is about dimension where the salayatana is ceased. the ceasing of impingement could refer to a dimension where the sensual stimulation has ceased,
What is Ceiswir's idea of jhana? Can you explain? I am clueless as to the connection between C's understanding and SN 35.117.
After that you are repeating stuff ...an insulation against sensuall stimulation, a reference to Dhamma Eye.

Revisting the beginning, what does Rupasanna mean to you, after this analysis of SN 35.117?
What is the soteriological significance of doing away with Rupasanna?
With love :candle:
PS Don't misunderstand me. I love when you bring up suttas for discussion. It helps refresh things in my own mind. Thank you for the gift of dhamma.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Jhana

Post by Mr. Seek »

After reading the whole DN and MN, most parts of AN, SN, and KN; after watching hundreds of hours of videos on the topic, reading hundreds of academic article pages; reading multiple books from so called modern meditation masters, familiarizing myself with nearly all past and present buddhist teachings, reading many mahayana sutras and early material, pretty much the whole Thannisaro book on Vinaya, spending hundreds of hours experimenting with all sorts of meditation methods, precepts, practices, views, etc., etc., etc., memorizing and reflecting on dozens of key suttas, browsing and chewing through thousands of comments on forums, blogs, etc., etc.., etc.... researching all buddhist traditions and sects, schools, etc... researching the hell out of anything EBT. non-EBT.... anything that I could find on Jainism even lol....

... I think that the only safe conclusion that can be reached is that the path to jhana (and liberation as a whole) is more or less LOST for he who doesn't endeavour to spend thousands of hours into academic research (to try and figure out, on his own, what original Buddhism is all about), and along with that, thousands of hours into actual practice and experimentation, to see what works for him and his aspirations.

As Ajahn Mun wrote at the end of his ballad, if my memory isnt deceiving me: ponder with discernment!

Unfortunately after much research that is all I can say. Read, read, read, experiment, read, experiment, and see for yourself what works and what doesnt, for your particular goal in life (important bit). If you wish to take things for granted (X sutta said this, Y master said that), you may, but at your own risk, of course.

Nothing is 100% correct... remember, dukkha.

Consider what Gotama did. He became proficient at it all, the theory and meditation methods of his time, considered them deeply, then gave it all up to strive further ahead, on his own and without any text/tradition to back him up

my 8 noble cents
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
auto
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Re: Jhana

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:35 pm .
It occurs to me now that the eye and the perception of form are citta sankharas(mental process[Sujato's transl]). And they won't cease unless namarupa is ceased.
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:35 pm What is Ceiswir's idea of jhana? Can you explain? I am clueless as to the connection between C's understanding and SN 35.117.
His idea at that time were that there is no hearing and seeing happening in a jhana. I don't agree with that, Sutta just keep resembling his idea.

For now i adhere to the idea what ceases in jhana(1-4) is namarupa(inclination).
And if that is ceased then one will understand with an eye of wisdom the eye&perception of form(salayatana).
That i believe is the infamous awareness of an awareness. And why the emphasis of 'one should understand the dimension..' is that it is not completely obvious that one needs specifically acknowledge this eye of wisdom.

What do you think of awareness of awareness(being aware of seeing)?
Pulsar
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

Mr Seek wrote
memorizing and reflecting on dozens of key suttas,
Mind sharing what you call the Key suttas? Someone else might ask "have you checked this one?".
Did you try eliminating those suttas that did not come across as authentic, such as DN 22. Did they all seem as if they were stamped by the Buddha?
You wrote
I think that the only safe conclusion that can be reached is that the path to jhana (and liberation as a whole) is more or less LOST
Perhaps you have reached a wrong conclusion, did you leave room for error? Have you read MN 83?
In it Buddha says to Ananda "Do not be the last man"

You continued
for he who doesn't endeavour to spend thousands of hours
into academic research (to try and figure out, on his own, what original Buddhism is all about),
and along with that, thousands of hours into actual practice
and experimentation, to see what works for him and his aspirations.
Ultimately you conclude, that liberation is not lost, to those who try to
endeavor, right?.
Thousands of hours is only a number. There is quality vs quantity.
What if there is a few left, who can recognize the distinction between quality of hours spent, vs quantity. Then the numbers may not seem daunting?
I just picked a few things you said, in order to give you a brief and concise answer.
With love :candle:
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