Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by SteRo »

Let me use a metaphor: it's a human brain fart (like other metaphysical ideas).
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:31 am
Thats why ten (questions) were
answered by letting it be.

Whether god exists or not, and so on,
The most important thing is to study
the contents of the holy book.
I think you didn't get my message. Here's the edit add on from the last post:

Edit add on: Also, the OP is asking for the Christian God in Buddhist context. However, by misusing terminologies, you kinda equated Buddha with the Christian God. That's not how Buddhists view the Christian God. Buddha is not the God of Buddhism, we admit no Christian God in Buddhism.

The original meaning of no 7-10 when referring to the Buddha is to avoid people having eternalist, or annihilationist view of the self in parinibbana, nothing to do with any notion of monotheistic God.

By misusing terminology, you're mixing up teachings which are not meant to be mixed up.
Indonesian Buddhists are theists because of the pancasila law. That might be the missing context.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Pondera »

The God of the Old Testament is basically a mean tempered Creator. In His wisdom He realized that He would need a servant to keep tabs on humans. Thus, Satan was born into being. Humans are of such a basically faulty predisposition that if God were to have to deal with them one by one (or all at once - which, incidentally, I believe He could do) then He’d lose his temper pretty fast.

To sufficiently address our evil nature Satan comes with his hoardes to condition and treat us. He does so by making us worse off in cases where we cannot improve on our own. And in cases where we are able to improve as beings, he sticks around to keep us on our toes.

Ie. God created a basically maniacal sadist with immense amounts of power to keep the humans in check.

These beings have their equivalents in Buddhism. The Buddha has always allowed for the possibility of “an OverLord”. And the underling of the Over Lord is Mara (quite obviously). The OverLord is essentially a bad tempered omnipotent being with infinite patience who directs the currents in the world. Mara is (like the devil) a being who tempts and persuades and will even destroy and lead to ruin (given the chance).

So, who is this “Jesus” fellow. Simply “a Bodhisattva”. A being who (like Amitaba) emanates a certain field of goodness which he offers to those who believe in him. But that “belief” must amount to certainty and also a personal relationship with him.

“Not all those on that day who cry “my Lord, my Lord!” Will be saved” - from the Bible.

To enter into the loving field of Jesus one must learn how to seek and find. Vague belief and blind adherence to dogma will not suffice.

What of the Trinity? Like Satan, Jesus is a go between for the OverLord and human kind. But in the case of Satan, the evil go to ruin. In the case of Jesus, the truly good find themselves surrounded by loving kindness.

Jesus said, “make every attempt to enter (the kingdom of heaven) through the narrow gate - for wide is the path leading to Hell and many fall into it”.

The teachings of the Buddha are (though not exclusively) an instruction manual on how to enter through the narrow gate (whilst avoiding the wide path to Hell).

The prospect of being reborn in Hell both in Christian teaching and Buddhist teachings are stated with a certain amount of equivalence. Well, all of those who do not believe in Christ are Hell bound. That’s one way to look at Christianity. Buddhism, in a slightly more optimistic sense, teaches that “many” are those who are reborn in the lower states. Humanity rebirth is as rare as a blind turtle coming to the ocean surface only to get his head caught in a yoke that’s been randomly drifting for one hundred years.

So, take your pick.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

  • "Christians" created Christian God.
  • Jesus saved Christians from Christian God.
That's my understanding.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Gwi
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Gwi »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:31 am
Gwi wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:26 am
Thats why ten (questions) were
answered by letting it be.

Whether god exists or not, and so on,
The most important thing is to study
the contents of the holy book.
I think you didn't get my message. Here's the edit add on from the last post:

Edit add on: Also, the OP is asking for the Christian God in Buddhist context. However, by misusing terminologies, you kinda equated Buddha with the Christian God. That's not how Buddhists view the Christian God. Buddha is not the God of Buddhism, we admit no Christian God in Buddhism.

The original meaning of no 7-10 when referring to the Buddha is to avoid people having eternalist, or annihilationist view of the self in parinibbana, nothing to do with any notion of monotheistic God.

By misusing terminology, you're mixing up teachings which are not meant to be mixed up.
Definition of god: (1) a single creature (being) at once
(2) worshiped by His people where
The (single) creature (being) does not worship
or pray to anyone (without exception),
on the contrary His people worship Him,
and (3) His words are made into holy verses,
Become holy books (canon).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am Definition of god:
God = law giver
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Gwi
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:24 pm
Gwi wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:21 am Definition of god:
God = law giver
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi;
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi;
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:41 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:31 am
Thats why ten (questions) were
answered by letting it be.

Whether god exists or not, and so on,
The most important thing is to study
the contents of the holy book.
I think you didn't get my message. Here's the edit add on from the last post:

Edit add on: Also, the OP is asking for the Christian God in Buddhist context. However, by misusing terminologies, you kinda equated Buddha with the Christian God. That's not how Buddhists view the Christian God. Buddha is not the God of Buddhism, we admit no Christian God in Buddhism.

The original meaning of no 7-10 when referring to the Buddha is to avoid people having eternalist, or annihilationist view of the self in parinibbana, nothing to do with any notion of monotheistic God.

By misusing terminology, you're mixing up teachings which are not meant to be mixed up.
Indonesian Buddhists are theists because of the pancasila law. That might be the missing context.
Really? Hmm... it would qualify as wrong views if so. Anyway, what Gwi is doing in redefining God is quite ok, in Indonesian context, if they have to swear by pancasila every now and then. However, to extend it to international usage (like this forum), it can cause misunderstanding. I guess my comments are sufficient to prevent that so far, for unknowing beginners.

For me in Malaysia, in school, every Monday, we have to swear by the pancasila. After I know that there's no God according to Buddhism, I kept silent during that "trust in God" part.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I know an Indonesian Buddhist who practices Mahāyāna Buddhism who says that, on the ground, the "official" stance is that the sect worships Ādibuddha Vairocana as "God," and "officially" reinterprets Buddhism as a panentheism or theistic monism, with Vairocana being the personified principle that stands regardless the arising of Buddhas or not. Basically, the idea is that the Buddhas through Buddhist practices penetrate through the māyā to witness the ground of being, the great all, the pseudo-God Vairocana. In reality, all this is a contrived narrative to comply with pancasila similar to the narrative that Confucians worship a deity called "Tiān." Few serious Buddhists take it very seriously. A few get into it, but they are in the minority. This is all secondhand information however.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Bundokji »

God of the Abrahamic religions is the literal-universal in causal terms.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by dicsoncandra »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm I know an Indonesian Buddhist who practices Mahāyāna Buddhism who says that, on the ground, the "official" stance is that the sect worships Ādibuddha Vairocana as "God," and "officially" reinterprets Buddhism as a panentheism or theistic monism, with Vairocana being the personified principle that stands regardless the arising of Buddhas or not. Basically, the idea is that the Buddhas through Buddhist practices penetrate through the māyā to witness the ground of being, the great all, the pseudo-God Vairocana. In reality, all this is a contrived narrative to comply with pancasila similar to the narrative that Confucians worship a deity called "Tiān." Few serious Buddhists take it very seriously. A few get into it, but they are in the minority. This is all secondhand information however.
Fortunately for the Theravadins, their most famous figure Bhante Uttamo when asked about this question redefined the pancasila instead. The first law in Indonesian says "Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa" where "Tuhan" means God but "Ketuhanan" means godliness. And so he proceeded to talk about wholesome action and perhaps the brahmaviharas (I can't recall exactly. Also likely to have talked about Nibbana being the absence of greed, hatred, delusion). But that's just one monk, I don't know about the others. I don't know if lay Theravadins in Indonesia believe in a God either since my parents are Tao-Mahayanists who do believe in God or Tian. Nevertheless, peace and freedom comes from understanding that God (as defined by other major religions) cannot be, because paticcasamuppāda doesn't leave space for atta let alone an entity like God

:anjali:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Post by sunnat »

In 'A Discourse on the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta' the Venerable Ledi Sayadaw said : (p9-10)

" ...From the Sutta we have just quoted, [the Brahmajāla Sutta?] one can surmise that the so-called God who is said to have created beings, the God who is said to be in the Heavenly abode, could be the Great Brahma [Baka?] who first appeared in the realm of the Brahmās at the beginning of the world. We could also take it that the supreme soul is the soul of that Great Brahmā. Then it becomes clear from the teachings of the Buddha that the supreme soul of the Great Brahmā is of the same nature as the individual soul of other beings. It is just a misconception that the continuous flux of mental and physical processes are a self. Actually, there is no such thing as a self apart from the psycho-physical phenomena; it is a mere figment of the imagination. ..."
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Gwi
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Gwi »

dicsoncandra wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm I know an Indonesian Buddhist who practices Mahāyāna Buddhism who says that, on the ground, the "official" stance is that the sect worships Ādibuddha Vairocana as "God," and "officially" reinterprets Buddhism as a panentheism or theistic monism, with Vairocana being the personified principle that stands regardless the arising of Buddhas or not. Basically, the idea is that the Buddhas through Buddhist practices penetrate through the māyā to witness the ground of being, the great all, the pseudo-God Vairocana. In reality, all this is a contrived narrative to comply with pancasila similar to the narrative that Confucians worship a deity called "Tiān." Few serious Buddhists take it very seriously. A few get into it, but they are in the minority. This is all secondhand information however.
Fortunately for the Theravadins, their most famous figure Bhante Uttamo when asked about this question redefined the pancasila instead. The first law in Indonesian says "Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa" where "Tuhan" means God but "Ketuhanan" means godliness. And so he proceeded to talk about wholesome action and perhaps the brahmaviharas (I can't recall exactly. Also likely to have talked about Nibbana being the absence of greed, hatred, delusion). But that's just one monk, I don't know about the others. I don't know if lay Theravadins in Indonesia believe in a God either since my parents are Tao-Mahayanists who do believe in God or Tian. Nevertheless, peace and freedom comes from understanding that God (as defined by other major religions) cannot be, because paticcasamuppāda doesn't leave space for atta let alone an entity like God

:anjali:
Defenition of "Ketuhanan yang maha esa".

(1)
Ketuhanan = president (head of state)
Ketuhanan yang maha esa = ONE PRESIDENT

Why head of state? In the past,
Kings (head of state) were called gods (Devå)

(2)
Believing in religion, where the people
Worship one supreme being (not two),
for each religion.

* esa = single (one)

If u have (1) religion and (2) accept (only)
One president, u doing "ketuhanan yang maha esa",
Buddhis, Islam, christian, or others religion.



We dunt say "God" in buddhis, we using "Tathāgatå".

If someone ask, "God is exist?"
We need to ask back: "What God? A creator?"
If he/she say yes, we need to answer:
"The Buddhå never said it."

If he say, "So, God is not exist?"
(Answer:) "The Buddhå never said it too."

The Buddhå never said: "GOD both exists and
doesn’t exist or GOD neither exists nor doesn’t exist."

If we answer like this, we doing the best.



When they say: "U said Tathāgatå god,
So that means u believe god is exist?"

We answer: "Do u believe this defenition of god?
(1) a single creature (being) at once
(2) worshiped by His people where
The (single) creature (being) does not worship
or pray to anyone (without exception),
on the contrary His people worship Him,
and (3) His words are made into holy verses,
Become holy books (canon)."


If he say: "Of course."
(Answer:) "Tathāgatå is our 'god', but we dunt
Using 'god', we using Tathāgatå. If u talking
Bout a CREATOR, back to my first answered." :meditate:
Last edited by Gwi on Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
confusedsoso
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by confusedsoso »

The only God is the God in your head.
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by dicsoncandra »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am Defenition of "Ketuhanan yang maha esa".

(1)
Ketuhanan = president (head of state)
Ketuhanan yang maha esa = ONE PRESIDENT

Why head of state? In the past,
Kings (head of state) were called gods (Devå)
This is just not true lol. Since when is it defined that way *facepalm*. Regardless, it kind of a pointless debate
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am (2)
Believing in religion, where the people
Worship one supreme being (not two),
for each religion.

* esa = single (one)

If u have (1) religion and (2) accept (only)
One president, u doing "ketuhanan yang maha esa",
Buddhis, Islam, christian, or others religion.
This one could be hence why I reckon Indonesian Buddhist monks would synonymise God with Nibbāna.
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am We dunt say "God" in buddhis, we using "Tathāgatå".
This is merely your own interpretation and definitely uncommon
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am If someone ask, "God is exist?"
We need to ask back: "What God? A creator?"
If he/she say yes, we need to answer:
"The Buddhå never said it."

If he say, "So, God is not exist?"
(Answer:) "The Buddhå never said it too."

The Buddhå never said: "GOD both exists and
doesn’t exist or GOD neither exists nor doesn’t exist."

If we answer like this, we doing the best.



When they say: "U said Tathāgatå god,
So that means u believe god is exist?"

We answer: "Do u believe this defenition of god?
(1) a single creature (being) at once
(2) worshiped by His people where
The (single) creature (being) does not worship
or pray to anyone (without exception),
on the contrary His people worship Him,
and (3) His words are made into holy verses,
Become holy books (canon)."


If he say: "Of course."
(Answer:) "Tathāgatå is our 'god', but we dunt
Using 'god', we using Tathāgatå. If u talking
Bout a CREATOR, back to my first answered." :meditate:
I would then proceed to question your definition of 'worship' because if it is indeed like how other religious people worship their God, then this is clearly not Buddha Dhamma. Practicing the Dhamma is not worship
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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