Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Gwi »

dicsoncandra wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:29 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am Defenition of "Ketuhanan yang maha esa".

(1)
Ketuhanan = president (head of state)
Ketuhanan yang maha esa = ONE PRESIDENT

Why head of state? In the past,
Kings (head of state) were called gods (Devå)
This is just not true lol. Since when is it defined that way *facepalm*. Regardless, it kind of a pointless debate
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am (2)
Believing in religion, where the people
Worship one supreme being (not two),
for each religion.

* esa = single (one)

If u have (1) religion and (2) accept (only)
One president, u doing "ketuhanan yang maha esa",
Buddhis, Islam, christian, or others religion.
This one could be hence why I reckon Indonesian Buddhist monks would synonymise God with Nibbāna.
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am We dunt say "God" in buddhis, we using "Tathāgatå".
This is merely your own interpretation and definitely uncommon
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:16 am If someone ask, "God is exist?"
We need to ask back: "What God? A creator?"
If he/she say yes, we need to answer:
"The Buddhå never said it."

If he say, "So, God is not exist?"
(Answer:) "The Buddhå never said it too."

The Buddhå never said: "GOD both exists and
doesn’t exist or GOD neither exists nor doesn’t exist."

If we answer like this, we doing the best.



When they say: "U said Tathāgatå god,
So that means u believe god is exist?"

We answer: "Do u believe this defenition of god?
(1) a single creature (being) at once
(2) worshiped by His people where
The (single) creature (being) does not worship
or pray to anyone (without exception),
on the contrary His people worship Him,
and (3) His words are made into holy verses,
Become holy books (canon)."


If he say: "Of course."
(Answer:) "Tathāgatå is our 'god', but we dunt
Using 'god', we using Tathāgatå. If u talking
Bout a CREATOR, back to my first answered." :meditate:
I would then proceed to question your definition of 'worship' because if it is indeed like how other religious people worship their God, then this is clearly not Buddha Dhamma. Practicing the Dhamma is not worship
When people say:
Namo tassa Bhagavatå Arahatå Sammāsambuddhassa (3x)
---> means worship (open dictionary)


God? Nibbānå? D i s c o n n e c t


I dunt see who can explain ketuhanan yg maha esa
Better than me.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by un8- »

dicsoncandra wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:29 am
I would then proceed to question your definition of 'worship' because if it is indeed like how other religious people worship their God, then this is clearly not Buddha Dhamma. Practicing the Dhamma is not worship
I wouldn't bother having this discussion. Asians are generally very ritualistic, that's their downfall. Westerners are overly metaphysical, and that's their downfall.

Gotama Buddha, from the sakkya clan, was neither asian nor western. Sakkyans were indoariyans who were outsiders, this is probably why Gotama couldn't integrate and rejected brahmanism which is also very ritualistic.

He had the level of skepticism that greek scholars have, that's why he was so revered in Ghandhara.

In my opinion, the majority of Asians who follow Buddhism are very very ritualistic, and Ven Dhammavuddho, the best Asian monk I know, had to tell them to stop trying to make merit via rituals and to start trying to understand dependent origination.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
User avatar
dicsoncandra
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:19 pm
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by dicsoncandra »

un8- wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:29 am
I would then proceed to question your definition of 'worship' because if it is indeed like how other religious people worship their God, then this is clearly not Buddha Dhamma. Practicing the Dhamma is not worship
I wouldn't bother having this discussion. Asians are generally very ritualistic, that's their downfall. Westerners are overly metaphysical, and that's their downfall.

Gotama Buddha, from the sakkya clan, was neither asian nor western. Sakkyans were indoariyans who were outsiders, this is probably why Gotama couldn't integrate and rejected brahmanism which is also very ritualistic.

He had the level of skepticism that greek scholars have, that's why he was so revered in Ghandhara.

In my opinion, the majority of Asians who follow Buddhism are very very ritualistic, and Ven Dhammavuddho, the best Asian monk I know, had to tell them to stop trying to make merit via rituals and to start trying to understand dependent origination.
Luckily we had a great master like Ajahn Chah who was not ritualistic. The majority of Thai forest monks, though, unfortunately hold the eternal citta view. On the other hand, metaphysical thinking isn't in itself perilous but the naturalistic approach is. As you have mentioned, understanding dependent origination is key.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12840
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

What do people think of translating abhipūja from the monastic evening service as "worship?" That's how it's translated almost always.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by form »

He is Prajapati
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by asahi »

Asian peoples are ritualistic ? How that conclusion came to be ? This is over generalisation . Same as western peoples , many believing in Jesus and they kneel down prays to God and do chanting , wont that count as ritualistic ?
Asian countries include china and india , how then Buddha wasnt an asian ? Buddha was ritualistic in some way , He accepted people bow to Him . He asked His disciples to chant the 7 factor of enlightenment when He or His disciple were in sickness ! Does bowing and chanting being considered as ritualistic ? :thinking:
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Sakka, a deva is god of Jews, then god of Xtians also after revering Buddha. The post-Buddha Sakka was a better deva.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... /sakka.htm
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12840
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by cappuccino »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 pm the god of Christianity. Does he exist?
Mahābrahmā, the Great Brahma


wiki
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Dweller »

Yes, Sakka or his aspects are worshipped by pre-Christian pagans as Zeus, Thor, Perun...
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12840
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by cappuccino »

Dweller wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:08 pm Yes, Sakka or his aspects are worshipped by pre-Christian pagans as Zeus
I don't know


I wouldn't say I know, if I do not
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Dweller »

Well, if Sakka is the one worshipped in Vedic times as Indra, then there are a lot of similarities with other Indo-European kings of gods, lords of thunder.

Purely from scientific point of view, these mythologies might have come from a common source.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The English word "God" comes from the Anglo-Saxon "Godan," their version of "Wotan," also known as "Odin." Random trivia.

Edit, see Sphairos's correction below.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
sphairos
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:14 pm The English word "God" comes from the Anglo-Saxon "Godan," their version of "Wotan," also known as "Odin." Random trivia.
No. God in German is Gott. Odin is Wotan and is cognate to Wut (rage, fury, mania, rage)

This is the word "god":

The Proto-Germanic meaning of *ǥuđán and its etymology is uncertain. It is generally agreed that it derives from a Proto-Indo-European neuter passive perfect participle *ǵʰu-tó-m. This form within (late) Proto-Indo-European itself was possibly ambiguous, and thought to derive from a root *ǵʰeu̯- "to pour, libate" (the idea survives in the Dutch word, 'Giet', meaning, to pour) (Sanskrit huta, see hotṛ), or from a root *ǵʰau̯- (*ǵʰeu̯h2-) "to call, to invoke" (Sanskrit hūta). Sanskrit hutá = "having been sacrificed", from the verb root hu = "sacrifice", but a slight shift in translation gives the meaning "one to whom sacrifices are made."

This is "Odin":

The Old Norse theonym Óðinn (runic ᚢᚦᛁᚾ on the Ribe skull fragment)[2] and its various Germanic cognates – including Old English Wōden, Old Saxon Wōdan, Old Dutch Wuodan,[3] and Old High German Wuotan (Old Bavarian Wûtan),[4] – all derive from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic masculine theonym *Wōđanaz (or *Wōdunaz).[5][6] Translated as 'lord of frenzy'[7] or 'leader of the possessed',[8] *Wōđanaz stems from the Proto-Germanic adjective *wōđaz ('delirious, raging') attached to the suffix *-naz ('master of').[7] Recently, an attestation of Proto-Norse Woðinz, on the Strängnäs stone has been accepted as probably authentic, but the name may be used as a related adjective instead meaning "with a gift for (divine) possession" (ON: øðinn).[9]

Other Germanic cognates derived from *wōđaz include Gothic woþs ('possessed'), Old Norse óðr ('mad, frantic, furious'), Old English wōd ('insane, frenzied') or Dutch woed ('frantic, wild, crazy'), along with the substantivized forms Old Norse óðr ('mind, wit, sense; song, poetry'), Old English wōþ ('sound, noise; voice, song'), Old High German wuot ('thrill, violent agitation') and Middle Dutch woet ('rage, frenzy'), where the original adjective turned into a noun. The Proto-Germanic terms *wōđīn ('madness, fury') and *wōđjanan ('to rage') can also be reconstructed.[5] Jan de Vries has argued that the Old Norse deities Óðinn and Óðr were probably originally the same (as in the doublet Ullr–Ullinn), with Óðr (*wōđaz) being the elder form and the ultimate source of the name Óðinn (*wōđa-naz).[10]

The adjective *wōđaz ultimately stems from Pre-Germanic *uoh₂-tós and is related to Proto-Celtic *wātis (from an earlier *ueh₂-tus), which means 'seer, sooth-sayer'.[11][12] According to linguist Guus Kroonen, the Latin term vātēs ('prophet, seer') is probably a Celtic loanword from the Gaulish language, making *uoh₂-tós / *ueh₂-tus a Germanic-Celtic isogloss rather than a term of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) origin.[11] In the case a borrowing scenario is excluded, a PIE etymon *(H)ueh₂-tis ('seer') can also be posited as the common ancestor of the attested Germanic, Celtic and Latin forms.[6]

Better info in the German wiki:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin#Etymologie
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

It looks like Godan is a Lombardic version of Wotan, not Anglo-Saxon. Apologies.

It makes sense "Godan" being Southern European, not Northern, because his G isn't a W. Now let's see if I'm mixing up my sound changes too!
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Locked