Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Post by cappuccino »

sunnat wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:49 pm god can be seen for what it is
the first person in the universe, the most powerful of divinities
Milinda
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Milinda »

What most christians call "God" or 'The Father' is the israeli Yahwe or the arabic Allah.

And by many archeologist they say that the Israeli Yahwe is a fusion between a bedouin arabian God and the cananean El.

They put in him a lot of human attributes making clear that is a Bronze-age god creation, like he has a throne, he has hands, he has eyes, he wants sacrifices (like the Eid el Adha in Islam), you have to pray, worship him, obey him.

Also 'God' aka -Bronze Age Yahwe-, gives to his followers some kind of choseness, and even he demands his followers even body mutilation like chop off the foreskin or the clitoris on women.

In fact in Islam, Judaism or some protestant sects God instead being a 'God' it's a law that must be obeyed.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by knotting »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:59 am
knotting wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 amSeveral years ago, I dipped my toes into Christian mysticism: 'The Cloud of Unknowing', Meister Eckhart, and such. It's possible that the Christian apophatic approach (along with Advaita Vedanta) are like the 'intermediate rafts' which can take one to the 'final raft' of the Dhamma.
Yes, entirely possible, and there is of course the counterpart position of some Christians that the Dhamma has a similar role in leading sincere seekers to God. :thinking:
The key difference is that Buddhists don't have any issues with Christians, but such Christians tend to view Buddhists as in 'need of conversion'.

I just got back from a friendly chat with the Jehovah's Witnesses at the park. I'd guess they were thinking - 'this young man is so close to finding Jehovah, we just need to help him take the final step!'
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:49 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:59 am
knotting wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 amSeveral years ago, I dipped my toes into Christian mysticism: 'The Cloud of Unknowing', Meister Eckhart, and such. It's possible that the Christian apophatic approach (along with Advaita Vedanta) are like the 'intermediate rafts' which can take one to the 'final raft' of the Dhamma.
Yes, entirely possible, and there is of course the counterpart position of some Christians that the Dhamma has a similar role in leading sincere seekers to God. :thinking:
The key difference is that Buddhists don't have any issues with Christians, but such Christians tend to view Buddhists as in 'need of conversion'.
Well, I know Christians that don't seem to regard Buddhists as requiring conversion, and there are Buddhists here and elsewhere who think Christians should take that final step away from theism. People obviously think their own religion is in some critical respects preferable to alternatives, but there is a very wide range of opinions on both sides as to what stance is taken towards the adherents of alternative faiths.
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Post by sunnat »

Generally ‘the mind created god is a creation of a self‘

If one then takes god to be reflections of underlying relationships to tenaciously clung to selves this thread may illuminate contributors.

With in-sight meditation Guatama became Buddha and uttered the following:

So many births I have taken in this world, seeking in vain the builder of this house; in my search over and over, I took new birth, new suffering.

Oh! house builder, now I have seen you, you cannot make a new house for me; all your beams are broken, the ridge pole is shattered; my mind is freed from all the conditionings of the past, and has no more craving for the future
.’
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Radix
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Radix »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 pmWho/what do you think the Christian god is?
None of my concern.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Kusala
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Kusala »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:50 pm I'm an ex-Christian who is now a Buddhist. I was involved in all three branches of Christianity over the years - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

I'm curious as to what other Theravada Buddhists think about the god of Christianity. Does he exist?

To recap, the god of Christianity is an insanely jealous being who created two naive humans, put them in a garden with a tree they weren't allowed to eat from, then kicked them out of the garden when they did eat from it, and cursed all their descendants with mortality because of it. In order to reconcile mankind to himself and let them into his presence, he had to become man (Jesus), live a sinless life and be brutally killed as a sacrifice to himself. But only those who believe in Jesus get to be with god after death. All unbelievers will go to hell where they will be tortured forever.

These are the options I can think of:
  • Doesn't exist
  • A hell being
  • A hungry ghost
  • An asura
  • A deva
  • A brahma
  • Sakka (Venerable Hsuan Hua taught that the Christian god was Sakka)
  • None of the above
According to Hinduism, Jesus was an incarnation Krishna. https://krishna.org/you-are-not-eternal ... liberated/ But according to Buddhism, Krishna is actually "Mara"...

Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.  For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.  And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. - Matthew 10:34-36

And here's Krishna telling Arjuna to kill his own kin: Considering also your duty as a warrior you should not waver. Because there is nothing more auspicious for a warrior than a righteous war. (2.31)(Bhagavad Gita) https://sites.google.com/site/persuasio ... gavad-gita

The Buddha..."Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he indeed is the noblest victor who conquers himself." - 103(Dhammapada)

"Self-conquest is far better then the conquest of others. Not even a god, an angel, Mara or Brahma can turn into defeat the victory of a person who is self-subdued and ever restrained in conduct. " - 104-105(Dhammapada) https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/dp08.htm
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Milinda
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Milinda »

I recommend the reading the book "The True Word" from Celsus, he was a greek anti-christian philosopher and he made many good points against "God" and the lack of narrative in christian and jewish communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Word
https://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/Texts/Celsus.html

Six Days of Creation
Moreover, their cosmogony is extremely silly. The narrative of the creation of man is exceedingly silly. The ancients proposed varying opinions regarding the world and the origin of man. The philosophers of the Porch assert that the virtue of God and man is the same, and maintain that the God who is over all things is not happier than their wise man, but that the happiness of both is equal. Moses and the prophets, who have left to them their books, not knowing at all what the nature of the world is, and of man, have woven together a web of sheer nonsense.

Their statements about the “days of creation” are absurd. The words, “Let there be light [Genesis 1:3],” sound like the expression of a wish. The Creator did not borrow light from above, like those persons who kindle their lamps at those of their neighbors. If, indeed, there did exist an accursed god opposed to the great God, who worked contrary to his approval, why did he lend him the light? With regard to the origin of the world and its destruction, whether it is to be regarded as uncreated and indestructible, or as created indeed, but not destructible, or the reverse, I at present say nothing. By far the most silly thing is the distribution of the creation of the world over certain days, before days existed: for, as the heaven was not yet created, nor the foundation of the earth yet laid, nor the sun yet revolving, how could there be days?

What god gives anything with the intention of demanding it back? For it is the mark of a needy person to demand back what he has given, whereas God stands in need of nothing. Why, when he lent his spirit, was he ignorant that he was lending it to an evil being? Why does he pass without notice a wicked creator who was counter-working his purposes? Why does he send secretly, and destroy the works which he has created? Why does he secretly employ force, and persuasion, and deceit? Why does he allure those who, as you assert, have been condemned or accused by him, and carry them away like a slave-dealer? Why does he teach them to steal away from their Lord? Why to flee from their father? Why does he claim them for himself against the father’s will? Why does he profess to be the father of strange children? Venerable, indeed, is the god who desires to be the father of those sinners who are condemned by another god, and of the needy, and, as themselves say, of the very offscourings of men, and who is unable to capture and punish his messenger, who escaped from him! If these are his works, how is it that God created evil? And how is it that he cannot persuade and admonish men? And how is it that he repents when men become ungrateful and wicked? He finds fault, moreover, with his own handwork, and hates, and threatens, and destroys his own offspring! But if he does not destroy his own offspring, whither can he transport them out of this world, which he himself has made?
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Kusala »

Milinda wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:50 am I recommend the reading the book "The True Word" from Celsus, he was a greek anti-christian philosopher and he made many good points against "God" and the lack of narrative in christian and jewish communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Word
https://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/Texts/Celsus.html

Six Days of Creation
Moreover, their cosmogony is extremely silly. The narrative of the creation of man is exceedingly silly. The ancients proposed varying opinions regarding the world and the origin of man. The philosophers of the Porch assert that the virtue of God and man is the same, and maintain that the God who is over all things is not happier than their wise man, but that the happiness of both is equal. Moses and the prophets, who have left to them their books, not knowing at all what the nature of the world is, and of man, have woven together a web of sheer nonsense.

Their statements about the “days of creation” are absurd. The words, “Let there be light [Genesis 1:3],” sound like the expression of a wish. The Creator did not borrow light from above, like those persons who kindle their lamps at those of their neighbors. If, indeed, there did exist an accursed god opposed to the great God, who worked contrary to his approval, why did he lend him the light? With regard to the origin of the world and its destruction, whether it is to be regarded as uncreated and indestructible, or as created indeed, but not destructible, or the reverse, I at present say nothing. By far the most silly thing is the distribution of the creation of the world over certain days, before days existed: for, as the heaven was not yet created, nor the foundation of the earth yet laid, nor the sun yet revolving, how could there be days?

What god gives anything with the intention of demanding it back? For it is the mark of a needy person to demand back what he has given, whereas God stands in need of nothing. Why, when he lent his spirit, was he ignorant that he was lending it to an evil being? Why does he pass without notice a wicked creator who was counter-working his purposes? Why does he send secretly, and destroy the works which he has created? Why does he secretly employ force, and persuasion, and deceit? Why does he allure those who, as you assert, have been condemned or accused by him, and carry them away like a slave-dealer? Why does he teach them to steal away from their Lord? Why to flee from their father? Why does he claim them for himself against the father’s will? Why does he profess to be the father of strange children? Venerable, indeed, is the god who desires to be the father of those sinners who are condemned by another god, and of the needy, and, as themselves say, of the very offscourings of men, and who is unable to capture and punish his messenger, who escaped from him! If these are his works, how is it that God created evil? And how is it that he cannot persuade and admonish men? And how is it that he repents when men become ungrateful and wicked? He finds fault, moreover, with his own handwork, and hates, and threatens, and destroys his own offspring! But if he does not destroy his own offspring, whither can he transport them out of this world, which he himself has made?
Thanks...

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"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
SarathW
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:45 pm
knotting wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:49 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:59 am

Yes, entirely possible, and there is of course the counterpart position of some Christians that the Dhamma has a similar role in leading sincere seekers to God. :thinking:
The key difference is that Buddhists don't have any issues with Christians, but such Christians tend to view Buddhists as in 'need of conversion'.
Well, I know Christians that don't seem to regard Buddhists as requiring conversion, and there are Buddhists here and elsewhere who think Christians should take that final step away from theism. People obviously think their own religion is in some critical respects preferable to alternatives, but there is a very wide range of opinions on both sides as to what stance is taken towards the adherents of alternative faiths.
What is your opinion on the following?
Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. - Matthew 10:34-36
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:02 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:45 pm
knotting wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:49 pm

The key difference is that Buddhists don't have any issues with Christians, but such Christians tend to view Buddhists as in 'need of conversion'.
Well, I know Christians that don't seem to regard Buddhists as requiring conversion, and there are Buddhists here and elsewhere who think Christians should take that final step away from theism. People obviously think their own religion is in some critical respects preferable to alternatives, but there is a very wide range of opinions on both sides as to what stance is taken towards the adherents of alternative faiths.
What is your opinion on the following?
Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. - Matthew 10:34-36
I don't know what it means, but I personally haven't met more than a tiny handful of Christians who take it as a model for modern-day conversion. They might in Sri Lanka, of course, but in which case you should convert them to Buddhism! :D
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:48 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:02 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:45 pm

Well, I know Christians that don't seem to regard Buddhists as requiring conversion, and there are Buddhists here and elsewhere who think Christians should take that final step away from theism. People obviously think their own religion is in some critical respects preferable to alternatives, but there is a very wide range of opinions on both sides as to what stance is taken towards the adherents of alternative faiths.
What is your opinion on the following?
Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. - Matthew 10:34-36
I don't know what it means, but I personally haven't met more than a tiny handful of Christians who take it as a model for modern-day conversion. They might in Sri Lanka, of course, but in which case you should convert them to Buddhism! :D
Well, Muslims tell the same thing about the Quran. And some Muslims take these texts literally and it is damaging.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:53 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:48 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:02 am
What is your opinion on the following?

I don't know what it means, but I personally haven't met more than a tiny handful of Christians who take it as a model for modern-day conversion. They might in Sri Lanka, of course, but in which case you should convert them to Buddhism! :D
Well, Muslims tell the same thing about the Quran. And some Muslims take these texts literally and it is damaging.
Again, I've mainly known pleasant and respectful Muslims, but any type of fanatics are to be resisted, in my opinion.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:58 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:53 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:48 am

I don't know what it means, but I personally haven't met more than a tiny handful of Christians who take it as a model for modern-day conversion. They might in Sri Lanka, of course, but in which case you should convert them to Buddhism! :D
Well, Muslims tell the same thing about the Quran. And some Muslims take these texts literally and it is damaging.
Again, I've mainly known pleasant and respectful Muslims, but any type of fanatics are to be resisted, in my opinion.
But when a religion preaches violence it is hard to control. We know that by experience. Even though some Buddhists are violent they do not have support from Tipitaka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by surfver »

I am influenced by Buddhism but am a Christian, although I know many christians can be dogmatic in certain ways. From my understanding, when the Buddha was asked about god he remained silent. According to the Hindu religion, buddha emphasized self effort which characterizes many aspects of buddhism and apparently self effort might de emphasize god even though god would have given all abilities in order for self effort to be possible.

I don't find it contradictory however that I can meditate sometimes on the transient nature of all things without extending that to a creator which is the first cause. I may not be able to define all aspects of the creator but perhaps many of the important aspects such as Love etc. Perhaps god can appear in different forms and people may argue but arguing I may not always find to be productive
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