Sex is always unwholesome

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Ceisiwr
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Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome...?

Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed [lust] is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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And how does a brahmin toe the line?

And why does the brahmin not have sex outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation? Because his brahmin wife is not there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, but only for procreation.

Having ensured his progeny through sex, his child makes him happy. Because of this attachment he stays in his family property, and does not go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
And how does a brahmin cross the [red] line?

He has sex with a brahmin woman, as well as with a woman from a caste of aristocrats, merchants, workers, outcastes, hunters, bamboo workers, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors. And he has sex with women who are pregnant, breastfeeding, or outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation.

His brahmin wife is there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, as well as for procreation.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:23 pm
And how does a brahmin toe the line?

And why does the brahmin not have sex outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation? Because his brahmin wife is not there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, but only for procreation.

Having ensured his progeny through sex, his child makes him happy. Because of this attachment he stays in his family property, and does not go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
And how does a brahmin cross the [red] line?

He has sex with a brahmin woman, as well as with a woman from a caste of aristocrats, merchants, workers, outcastes, hunters, bamboo workers, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors. And he has sex with women who are pregnant, breastfeeding, or outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation.

His brahmin wife is there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, as well as for procreation.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato

That doesn’t mean sex is wholesome.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:25 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:23 pm
And how does a brahmin toe the line?

And why does the brahmin not have sex outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation? Because his brahmin wife is not there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, but only for procreation.

Having ensured his progeny through sex, his child makes him happy :twothumbsup: . Because of this attachment he stays in his family property, and does not go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
That doesn’t mean sex is wholesome.
Why not? :shrug: Are you saying your parents looking after you was not wholesome? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:25 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:23 pm
That doesn’t mean sex is wholesome.
Why not? :shrug:
The sutta is advising the Brahmin a way of having sex that minimises sensual pleasure, but it’s still engaging in sensual pleasure (as he is still having sex). It’s the same as keeping the 5 precepts. Keeping the 5 precepts doesn’t mean the lay person is avoiding all unwholesome acts. They are merely minimising them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Why do you think it means that some sex is wholesome?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:34 pmWhy do you think it means that some sex is wholesome?
Because the virtuous puthujjana is not predisposed to attain the non-sensual pleasure of jhana therefore the virtuous puthujjana develops the virtues of parenthood. Do you think a person can be a good parent without developing selfless virtues? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:34 pmWhy do you think it means that some sex is wholesome?
Because the virtuous puthujjana is not predisposed to attain the non-sensual pleasure of jhana therefore the virtuous puthujjana develops the virtues of parenthood. Do you think a person can be a good parent without developing selfless virtues? :shrug:
That doesn't make sex wholesome. Sex is still rooted in ignorance and lust.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:31 pmThat doesn't make sex wholesome. Sex is still rooted in ignorance and lust.
When the majority of people cannot attain Nibbana (as the Buddha taught) and must live according to how Nature (Dhamma) designed them; it is wise, skillful & wholesome for those dear puthujjana people to engage in wholesome marriage relationships to avoid the suffering of loneliness & tormenting biological lust.

Have you ever seen a female dog oppressively on heat? Do you believe people are designed differently? Do you not believe in Evolution? :shrug:

The Buddha was abundantly unambiguous when he said the Four Noble Truths, which includes celibacy, is for those who have left the household life. Unlike what appears to be authoritarian fundamentalism on your behalf, the Buddha never ever said all sex is unwholesome for laypeople.

If celibacy and abstinence actually creates more suffering, it is best avoided.

Contrary to your explicit misrepresentations of Christianity, the Bible says:
1 Corinthians 7

Concerning Married Life
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were [celibate] as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
A classical Theravadin view would be a momentarist view.

With a typical sexual act between two persons in love, there will be moments of mettā, which are wholesome, moments of lust, which are unwholesome, and moments of visual consciousness, auditory consciousness, olfactory consciousness, etc., which are kammically neutral.

The unwholesome moments, however, will not amount to an akusala kammapatha (an unwholesome kamma with the power to cause a bad rebirth), provided you're not doing it with someone you shouldn't be (which would be the akusala kammapatha of sexual misconduct) or lusting after someone you shouldn't be (which would be the akusala kammapatha of covetousness).
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
For the male perspective, Buddha taught* erections occur due to one of these five causes: lust, wind, feces, urine or insect bite (some type of caterpillar). Of these, only the first is a mental cause. Some illnesses may irritate the urethra etc. and also condition erections.

There are other types of sexual activity besides penile, but according to Buddha Dhamma, all are based on gradations of sexual desire. If the mind is free of sexual desire, it won't be interested in sexual activity.

* if someone is interested in finding the reference, it is in the Vinaya
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/snp2.14 wrote:Let the intelligent person live a celibate life,
as one would avoid a pit of glowing coals;
but being unable to live the celibate life,
go not beyond the bounds with others’ partners.
Last edited by salayatananirodha on Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire—that is impossible.
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi

But I guess stream entry is still possible while living with a wife.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Srilankaputra wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:49 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire—that is impossible.
https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi

But I guess stream entry is still possible while living with a wife.
Even anagami is possible when having wife but in this case u won’t have xx or any attachment with her.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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