What is Nāga world and Supanna world? where are they loacted?

[thomaslaw]

I hate snakes and im scared of them. how can i avoid reborn as naga?

According to Sotapatti Samyutta, e.g. the suttas SN 55.1, 16-17,
if one has definite faith (aveccappasaada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma/Dharma, the Sangha, and noble morality (ariyakanta-siila) (such as the five precepts),
one "is released from hell, from the realm of animals, and from the realm of ghosts"; one "is released from evil rebirth, from woe-realm, from downfall" (SN 55.1); "it is an absolute impossibility that such a person should be reborn in hell, the realm of animals, or in the realm of ghosts" (SN 55.16-17). (see pp. 229, 233, Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism)

[Dhammanando]

I hate snakes and im scared of them. how can i avoid reborn as naga?

If you were reborn as a nāga you wouldn't be scared of snakes. You'd be their boss.

[confusedlayman]

I hate snakes and im scared of them. how can i avoid reborn as naga?

If you were reborn as a nāga you wouldn't be scared of snakes. You'd be their boss.

dont like the snake body architecture

[confusedlayman]

I hate snakes and im scared of them. how can i avoid reborn as naga?

According to Sotapatti Samyutta, e.g. the suttas SN 55.1, 16-17,
if one has definite faith (aveccappasaada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma/Dharma, the Sangha, and noble morality (ariyakanta-siila) (such as the five precepts),
one "is released from hell, from the realm of animals, and from the realm of ghosts"; one "is released from evil rebirth, from woe-realm, from downfall" (SN 55.1); "it is an absolute impossibility that such a person should be reborn in hell, the realm of animals, or in the realm of ghosts" (SN 55.16-17). (see pp. 229, 233, Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism)

thanks but do one also need to know lack of self in aggregates?

[Dhammanando]

dont like the snake body architecture

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't like it if it became your body architecture.

I'm reminded of a story from the commentaries where an evil queen gets reborn as some kind of blood-sucking insect, but with the ability to recall her former life. While sitting at a roadside with another beetle of the same species she sees a royal chariot going by. She tells her fellow beetle that the king riding in the chariot is her former husband. The other beetle asks her if she still feels any wifely affection for him. The evil-queen-turned-beetle scoffs at the idea and replies that if she got the chance she'd happily suck every drop of blood from the king's body to feed her present beetle husband.

[thomaslaw]

I hate snakes and im scared of them. how can i avoid reborn as naga?

According to Sotapatti Samyutta, e.g. the suttas SN 55.1, 16-17,
if one has definite faith (aveccappasaada) in the Buddha, the Dhamma/Dharma, the Sangha, and noble morality (ariyakanta-siila) (such as the five precepts),
one "is released from hell, from the realm of animals, and from the realm of ghosts"; one "is released from evil rebirth, from woe-realm, from downfall" (SN 55.1); "it is an absolute impossibility that such a person should be reborn in hell, the realm of animals, or in the realm of ghosts" (SN 55.16-17). (see pp. 229, 233, Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism)

thanks but do one also need to know lack of self in aggregates?

No worries

[confusedlayman]

dont like the snake body architecture

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't like it if it became your body architecture.

I'm reminded of a story from the commentaries where an evil queen gets reborn as some kind of blood-sucking insect, but with the ability to recall her former life. While sitting at a roadside with another beetle of the same species she sees a royal chariot going by. She tells her fellow beetle that the king riding in the chariot is her former husband. The other beetle asks her if she still feels any wifely affection for him. The evil-queen-turned-beetle scoffs at the idea and replies that if she got the chance she'd happily suck every drop of blood from the king's body to feed her present beetle husband.

But i dont want to be born not only as snake but not as any animal due to suffering more than human. but in human life i dont like to see snakes and if i dont want to be born as snake because once we become snake, we need to feed on dead rats and cockroach ... which is disguisting.

even if i become englightened, i better drench in rain and get sick than to get covered by 5 head snake with its hood ...

[JustSweepin]

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't like it if it became your body architecture.

I'm reminded of a story from the commentaries where an evil queen gets reborn as some kind of blood-sucking insect, but with the ability to recall her former life. While sitting at a roadside with another beetle of the same species she sees a royal chariot going by. She tells her fellow beetle that the king riding in the chariot is her former husband. The other beetle asks her if she still feels any wifely affection for him. The evil-queen-turned-beetle scoffs at the idea and replies that if she got the chance she'd happily suck every drop of blood from the king's body to feed her present beetle husband.

I don't want to derail this thread too much but is there somewhere I can learn about the various commentaries to the canon ie. which ones are which, who wrote them, their relative importance to the various Theravadan traditions, and most importantly to me whether any of them are available in English? While I like to stick to the core Nikayas for study I'm finding I like the idea of reading various other writings in the tradition like the Jataka Tales, the Petavatthu and perhaps some commentary on the canon - I figure it kind of gives me something wholesome to do instead of watching television, getting into trouble and all that jazz and I might learn something important along the way hopefully.

[Dhammanando]

I don't want to derail this thread too much but is there somewhere I can learn about the various commentaries to the canon

Start with chapters 5 and 6 of G.P. Malalasekera's The Pali Literature of Ceylon, (1928)

Then for more depth, chapter 5 of Oskar von Hinüber's A Handbook of Pali Literature

Then:
Toshiichi Endo, Buddha in Theravada Buddhism: a study of the concept of Buddha in the Pali commentaries, (1997)

And if you can manage to find a copy:
Toshiichi Endo, Studies in Pali Commentarial Literature: sources, controversies and insights, (2013)

[Coëmgenu]

Are there any accounts in Theravāda of the Nāgas living in the abyss of the ocean, very far down?

[confusedlayman]

Are there any accounts in Theravāda of the Nāgas living in the abyss of the ocean, very far down?

water snakes? yes. but if u mean naga creature from naga world with head of snake and body of humans then no. by the way, they might be seen using divine eye

[TRobinson465]

I also thought that way. But after reading this information by Malalasekera, It still dosent seem to make clear that Nagas are only the deities from Virupakkha. The issue here is we find Virupakkha is also a type of snakes. Also how we have to take those naga kings that lived in Sri Lanka. Also who are Nagas that protected Buddha's relics? Are they Virupakkha deities? Then again there is a confusion as to how we need to understand this community of Nagas. can you pls explain.

From what I understand, nagas exist in the realm of the four great kings as well as as "Bhumadevas" (devas of the earth, as mentioned in various texts such as the dhammacakkavappattana sutta). Just as devas of human-esque form exist in the 6 heavenly realms as well as on earth as "bhummadevas". So i understood the nagas that protect the Buddha relics and of the ones of legend in Sri lanka and the klong river on the border of Thailand and Laos as Bhuma deva nagas. Although they could also be from the realm of the four great kings and just be moving to this realm to visit also. I recall there's a jataka of the Buddha being a naga in the past who was captured while visiting the earthly realm or something.

[Dhammanando]

Are there any accounts in Theravāda of the Nāgas living in the abyss of the ocean, very far down?

Like the ones that Mahayanists claim preserved their sūtras? If so, then yes, in the commentaries they're called ūmipiṭṭhivāsino nāgā. They're lower-class nāgas who didn't have enough merit to be born in celestial mansions, as contrasted with the vimānaṭṭhakā nāgā, who did.

The former are also mentioned (though not by name) in the simile in SN 46.1:

"Bhikkhus, based upon the Himalayas, the king of mountains, the nāgas nurture their bodies and acquire strength. When they have nurtured their bodies and acquired strength, they then enter the pools. From the pools they enter the lakes, then the streams, then the rivers, and finally they enter the ocean. There they achieve greatness and expansiveness of body.

"So too, bhikkhus, based upon virtue, established upon virtue, a bhikkhu develops and cultivates the seven factors of enlightenment, and thereby he achieves greatness and expansiveness in wholesome states."

Commentary:

When the female nāgas become pregnant they realize that if they gave birth in the ocean their offspring could be attacked by the supaṇṇas or swept away by a strong current. Thus they ascend the rivers to the Himalayas and give birth there. They then train their young in the mountain ponds until they have mastered the art of swimming.

[Coëmgenu]

Are there any accounts in Theravāda of the Nāgas living in the abyss of the ocean, very far down?

Like the ones that Mahayanists claim preserved their sūtras? If so, then yes, in the commentaries they're called ūmipiṭṭhivāsino nāgā. They're lower-class nāgas who didn't have enough merit to be born in celestial mansions, as contrasted with the vimānaṭṭhakā nāgā, who did.

My, my. I'm surprised I don't hear more about this, given the popularity of the myth of Ven Nāgārjuna's scuba-diving prajñāpāramitā adventures amongst Theravādin sectarians.

I am a bit wary of this though, bhante, not because I like the story of Ven Nāgārjuna's scuba-diving, but because I see the chthonic "deep serpents" like Anantaśeṣa as belonging to older animistic currents of pre-Vedic thought that would have pre-dated the Buddha by quite some time.

But the canonical explanation still stands. I suppose the next question, if you are so obliged, is as to whether or not the watery nāgas share in the extraordinary lifespans of their heavenly cousins (is it one Mahākalpa?).

Actually, in Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma, a birth as a nāga is a birth as an animal, because nāgas and normal snakes are considered the exact same thing. The reason why some nāgas become wise is they simply don't die, allegedly. So there is a bigger difference in these two nāga traditions than I first thought.

In the Pāli tradition, is a birth as a nāga equivalent to a birth as a snake/animal or birth as a deva-like celestial being?

[Dhammanando]

I suppose the next question, if you are so obliged, is as to whether or not the watery nāgas share in the extraordinary lifespans of their heavenly cousins (is it one Mahākalpa?).

I don't know for sure, but I rather suspect that the watery worms who preserve Mahayana sūtras will probably have rather short life-spans on that account.


It's reported, however, that the superior classes of nāgas can live for immensely long spans. Take Mahākāḷa, for example:

Mahākāḷa.– A Nāga king who dwelt in the Mañjerika Nāgabhavana. When the Buddha, after eating the meal given by Sujātā, launched the bowl up stream, it travelled a short way and then stopped, having reached the Nāga’s abode under the Nerañjarā, and then came into contact with the bowls similarly launched by the three previous Buddhas of this world-cycle. To the Nāga because of his long life it seemed that the previous Buddha had died only the preceding day, and he rejoiced to think that another had been born. He went therefore to the scene of the Buddha’s Enlightenment with his Nāga maidens and they sang the Buddha’s praises. J.i.70, 72; this incident is among those sculpturally represented in the Relic Chamber of the Mahā Thūpa (Mhv.xxxi.83); see also Dvy.392; Mtu.ii.265, 302, 304.

Kāḷa’s life span was one world-cycle; therefore he saw all the four Buddhas of this world-cycle, and when Asoka wished to see the form of the Buddha, he sent for Mahākāḷa, who created for him a beautiful figure of the Buddha, complete in every detail (Mhv.v.87 f; Sp.i.43, etc.)

When the Buddha’s relics, deposited at Rāmagāma, were washed away, Mahākāḷa took the basket containing them into his abode and there did them honour until they were removed, against his will, by Soṇuttara. Mhv.xxxi.25 ff.
(Dictionary of Pali Proper Names)

Actually, in Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma, a birth as a nāga is a birth as an animal, because nāgas and normal snakes are considered the exact same thing.

That's also the case in the Pali Vinaya (and other Vinayas too, I believe). The origin story about the prohibition against ordaining animals was the result of the sangha ordaining a nāga who had assumed human form:

The Story of an Animal (Tiracchānagatavatthu)

Now at that time a certain serpent was troubled about his birth as a serpent, he was ashamed of it, loathed it. Then it occurred to that serpent: “Now, by what means could I be freed quickly from birth as a serpent and get back human status?” Then it occurred to that serpent: “These recluses, sons of the Sakyans, are dhamma-farers, even-farers, Brahma-farers, they are truth-speakers, they are of moral habit, of good conduct. Now if I were to go forth among the recluses, sons of the Sakyans, so would I be freed quickly from birth as a serpent and could get back human status.”

Then that serpent, in the form of a brahmin youth, having approached the monks, asked for the going forth. The monks let him go forth, they ordained him. Now at that time that serpent, together with a certain monk, was living in a dwelling-place on the boundary. Then that monk, getting up in the night towards dawn, paced up and down in the open air. Then that serpent, confident that that monk had gone out, fell asleep. The whole dwelling-place was full of the snake, his coils were protruding through the windows.

Then that monk, thinking: “I will enter the dwelling-place,” opening the door, saw the whole dwelling-place full of the snake, his coils protruding through the windows. Terrified at seeing this, he uttered a cry of distress. Monks, having run up, spoke thus to that monk: “Why did you, your reverence, utter a cry of distress?”

“Your reverences, this whole dwelling-place is full of a snake, his coils are protruding through the windows.” Then that serpent having awakened because of this noise, sat down on his own seat. Monks spoke thus: “Who are you, friend?”

“I am a serpent, honoured sirs.”

“But why did you, friend, act in this way?” Then that serpent told this matter to the monks. The monks told this matter to the Lord.

Then the Lord on this occasion, in this connection, having had the Order of monks convened, spoke thus to this serpent: “Indeed, you serpents are not liable to growth in this dhamma and discipline. You, serpent, go away, observe the Observance day precisely on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth day of the half-month. Thus will you be freed quickly from birth as a serpent and get back human status.”

Then that serpent, thinking: “It is said that I am not liable to growth in this dhamma and discipline,” pained, afflicted, shedding tears, departed having uttered a cry of distress.

Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: “Monks, there are these two cases of manifestation of a serpent’s true nature: when he indulges in sexual intercourse with a female of his own species, and when he falls asleep in confidence. Monks, these are two cases of manifestation of a serpent’s true nature. Monks, if an animal is not ordained, it should not be ordained; if it is ordained, it should be expelled.”

In the Pāli tradition, is a birth as a nāga equivalent to a birth as a snake/animal or birth as a deva-like celestial being?

As you can see from the Vinaya narrative above, at least some nāgas are animals, but I'm not sure if it's the case that all of them are.

For example, are the nāga followers of Virūpakkha in the Cātummahārājika heaven animals? Or are they devas of serpentine form? I've never seen any explicit statement either way, but I think the Theravāda position ought to be that they are devas, for at the Third Council the Theravādins rejected the claim of the Andhakas that there might be animals living in the heavenly realms.