Vipassanā Technique Revisited

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Volo,
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:05 am I'm not very familiar with Goenka's technique, therefore I can rely only on what you have quoted. And I don't see in the above quote the word "feeling". He is taking about "sensations" (i.e. bodily experiences), feelings (at least in Abhidhamma and very often in the suttas) is mental aggregate.
(Keeping in mind that I wrote all of the above in English as much as possible to make it understandable to anyone without much knowledge of Pali or Buddhism)

My understanding of the Goenka technique in its primary sense is that it's about sensations, but that the logic behind the choice of sensations as the object of meditation is that they serve as connection or interface to all things, including feelings, and how one might feel about, or react to the sensations... but I'm sure someone more well versed with the rationale behind the Goenka technique can clarify. I believe once upon a time Ben posted a copy of a paper on this subject published by the Vipassana Research Institute, but I wouldn't know where to find it now.
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:05 am What does it have to do with Jains? Jains (at least from buddhist suttas) did self-mortification, i.e. they created on purpose an unpleasant bodily sensations thinking that this sensation has something to do with their past kamma. I don't see where Goenka suggests to do anything like that.

What he says is that (I'm rephrasing the way I understand him) every consciousness produces some materiality (this is also according to Abhidhamma, or to be more precise "every consciousness, which depends on the heart base), which we experience as bodily sensations or as changes in the breath pattern. If mind is unwholesome, the sensation/breath would be unpleasant. If we react to it with greed, hatred or delusion, we create new unwholesome kamma. Whereas if we simply stay with it (i.e. not trying to create this unpleasant sensation), we exhaust bad mind tendency, which caused it to arise (note that in your quote Goenka doesn't use word "kamma").
And as you know, this talk of "every consciousness produces some materiality" is not in the suttas, so you may need to excuse my lack of interest in it.

Regarding "Jains (at least from buddhist suttas) did self-mortification, i.e. they created on purpose an unpleasant bodily sensations thinking that this sensation has something to do with their past kamma. I don't see where Goenka suggests to do anything like that."... this is not an uncommon position amongst Burmese Vipassana Practitioners. Apparently it is better for their practice to discern a strong unpleasant sensation than a weaker neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant one, and some will self-mortify (though I doubt they would call it that) in order to give rise to such unpleasantness.

Again, consult your nearest BVT practitioner if you want a second opinion on their practices as my purpose with this writing is not to explain their techniques, but to explore the limits of technique itself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:23 am And as you know, this talk of "every consciousness produces some materiality" is not in the suttas, so you may need to excuse my lack of interest in it.
Well, since you posted in Vipassana/Satipatthana sub-forum, where people usually accept Abhidhamma, I thought you also accept Abhidhamma.

What concerns Goenka's vs Jains: I've just pointed that what you claimed is not what he said in the quote.
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:23 am my purpose with this writing is not to explain their techniques, but to explore the limits of technique itself.
Yes, Burmese often go to the extreme in what concerns technique, but abandoning techniques is way more dangerous. Even noble 8-fold path is a technique in a way.

Those, who claim, they go "beyond techniques" in reality just create their own techniques (which they nowadays like to call "according to EBT" for some reason). Whether it's better than Goenka/Mahasi, etc is a question for another topic.
Last edited by Volo on Fri May 15, 2020 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:01 am What concerns Goenka's vs Jains: I've just pointed that what you claimed is not what he said in the quote.
Right. He didn't acknowledge the syncretism, nor how he (in my opinion, diabolically mis-) represented "sankhara". But again, not what this topic is about...

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Technique Revisited

Post by mikenz66 »

Some nice observations there. I've lately found Bhikkhu Nanananda useful. His instructions are based on the Mahasi approach and he discusses bare awareness/attention in the Nibbana Sermons, e.g. Sermon 14 (Bāhiya sutta) ,and Sermon 31, and in Seeing Through - A guide to insight meditation, Walk to Nibbana, and Towards Calm and Insight.
Lots of good stuff at: https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/

I also found Bhikkhu Analayo's recent book on Satipatthana useful. He transcribed the Nibbana Sermons, and some of what he presents is clearly based on Nananada's work, who he says is one of his two main influences (the other being Bhikkhu Bodhi).
Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation: A Practice Guide, Cambridge: Windhorse, 2018. Downloadable here: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... lications/ and with guided meditations at Windhorse Publications.
Analayo uses a body-scanning approach, but applies it not only to feeling, but to other aspects of Satipatthana (body parts, elements, and so on). In his talks on the Nibbana sermons he responded to questions from me and others about internal/external meditations (which Nananda mentions a lot towards the end of the Nibbana Sermons when he's talking more about practice) by describing a slight extension of being aware of elements such as earth externally (obviously by paying attention not only to internal earth element, but the perception of external via touch and so on). He discusses this idea in his guided meditations on Mindfully Facing Climate Change.

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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Volo,
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:07 am Yes, Burmese often go to the extreme in what concerns technique, but abandoning techniques is way more dangerous. Even noble 8-fold path is a technique in a way.
I guess that depends on what you mean by technique...
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:07 am Those, who claim, they go "beyond techniques" in reality just create their own techniques (which they nowadays like to call "according to EBT" for some reason). Whether it's better than Goenka/Mahasi, etc is a question for another topic.
Well, I think I adequately covered why this isn't necessarily the case, in the writings on page 1, but I will summarize by saying...

As I see it, the suttas tell you how to see, whereas techniques tell you what to do in order to see.

In the aforementioned Zoom conversation, this was discussed with reference to AN 4.126, which has the instruction...
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. At the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in conjunction with the devas of the Pure Abodes. This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
To me, this is "how to see"... rather than "what to do" in order to see.

In the past I've had some people tell me that such instructions from the suttas are the result of practice, not the practice itself, but I disagree with that... especially when their alleged "practices" are not found in the suttas (keeping in mind here the principle of the Simsapa Sutta)

It is certainly an interesting discussion to consider what a vipassana practice devoid of technique (i.e. a sequence of doings) would look like.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:39 am Greetings Volo,
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:07 am Yes, Burmese often go to the extreme in what concerns technique, but abandoning techniques is way more dangerous. Even noble 8-fold path is a technique in a way.
I guess that depends on what you mean by technique...
Volo wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:07 am Those, who claim, they go "beyond techniques" in reality just create their own techniques (which they nowadays like to call "according to EBT" for some reason). Whether it's better than Goenka/Mahasi, etc is a question for another topic.
Well, I think I adequately covered why this isn't necessarily the case, in the writings on page 1, but I will summarize by saying...

As I see it, the suttas tell you how to see, whereas techniques tell you what to do in order to see.

In the aforementioned Zoom conversation, this was discussed with reference to AN 4.126, which has the instruction...
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. At the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in conjunction with the devas of the Pure Abodes. This rebirth is not in common with run-of-the-mill people.
To me, this is "how to see"... rather than "what to do" in order to see.

In the past I've had some people tell me that such instructions from the suttas are the result of practice, not the practice itself, but I disagree with that... especially when their alleged "practices" are not found in the suttas (keeping in mind here the principle of the Simsapa Sutta)

It is certainly an interesting discussion to consider what a vipassana practice devoid of technique (i.e. a sequence of doings) would look like.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I'm not seeing a clear distinction between "how to see" and "what to do".

For example the AN4.126 passage above involves looking at ("regarding") the phenomena asociated with the aggregates in a particular way. But isn't that particular way of looking itself a method or technique?

To put it another way, isn't practice based on certain principles or assumptions (like the 3 marks), which necessarily involve a certain way of looking at things?
Doesn't it involve paying attention with a purpose, looking at/for particular qualities?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri May 15, 2020 8:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

Post by Sam Vara »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 5:00 am Greetings,

OK... they're the relevant sections. Feel free to critique and comment at will.

Metta,
Paul. :)
My initial comment is that it's a minor tour de force. It needs preserving and disseminating in a better format - a little booklet, perhaps?

I'm sure some more critical thoughts will start to arise as volition gets going, but for now, thank you very much for posting. :bow:
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Re: Vipassanā Technique Revisited

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Greetings Mike,

Thanks for sharing some of your preferred readings on the subject.

I did once submit a question to Ven. Nanananda via an intermediary to ask him how he personally reconciled the Abhidhammic/commentarial underpinnings of the Mahasi technique with his sutta-derived convinctions about the wrongness of the notion of "paramattha Dhammas" and its suggestion of existence.

The question was held back until Ven. Nanananda was well enough to compose a response, but unfortunately he did not recover. The answer would have been very interesting in the context of this conversation, had we been able to get it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Technique Revisited

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Lots that I agree with Retro.
Yesterday in the zoom meeting you cited a sutta, one which I have pondered countless times.
It is pure Abhidhamma really, albeit situated in the Suttanta. Here is the same idea:
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/outlook/outlook-8.htm
Nina Van Gorkom
'
Samyutta Nikaya' (Khandha-vagga, Last Fifty, par. 122, Virtue) that Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what would be the object of awareness for a virtuous monk (who has not realized any stage of enlightenment yet), or for a sotapanna, or for those who have realized the subsequent stages of enlightenment. Sariputta explained that the object is the five khandhas of grasping, which are all the namas and rupas in and around oneself. Sariputta said:

'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self..
.

It makes me wonder whether you might one day read the Abhidhamma and Commentary with a more appreciative eye..
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:48 am I'm not seeing a clear distinction between "how to see" and "what to do".

For example the AN4.126 passage above involves looking at ("regarding") the phenomena asociated with the aggregates in a particular way. But isn't that particular way of looking itself a method or technique?

To put it another way, isn't practice based on certain principles or assumptions (like the 3 marks), which necessarily involve a certain way of looking at things?
Doesn't it involve paying attention with a purpose, looking at/for particular qualities?
It is and does, yes. Again, I think I outlined this in quite a lot of detail on page one...

But perhaps I could flip the question and ask that if that's how it is, then what is, and why is there, a Goenka technique, a Mahasi technique and so on?

And what is it to not use one of these post-sutta techniques?

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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retrofuturist wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:39 am It is certainly an interesting discussion to consider what a vipassana practice devoid of technique (i.e. a sequence of doings) would look like.
Probably what some describe as "choiceless awareness" which by which they mean not having any particular intention about what to observe. It's not uncommon, and apparently Shikantaza is similar, as we've discussed here before somewhere.

If you read some of the Mahasi-related teachers, you'll find they see this choiceless wareness as something one naturally progresses to, where the particular objects of attention are dropped after a time and whatever arises is observed. It's something that can come naturally on a retreat when calm and mindfulness have been developed.

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Re: Vipassanā Technique Revisited

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:00 am It makes me wonder whether you might one day read the Abhidhamma and Commentary with a more appreciative eye..
(Without wanting to deviate too far off-topic...)

I certainly won't be rejecting it in toto because it is the Abhidhamma / Commentary, but in instances when it is positing existence and non-existence, I certainly won't be using it as a framework for understanding the Dhamma.

If there are Abhidhamma-esque things in the suttas, then I will certainly regard them as Sutta. I think there was a discussion on this forum once about whether MN117 influenced Abhidhamma, or vice versa... It's a great sutta.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:23 am Probably what some describe as "choiceless awareness" which by which they mean not having any particular intention about what to observe. It's not uncommon, and apparently Shikantaza is similar, as we've discussed here before somewhere.

If you read some of the Mahasi-related teachers, you'll find they see this choiceless wareness as something one naturally progresses to, where the particular objects of attention are dropped after a time and whatever arises is observed. It's something that can come naturally on a retreat when calm and mindfulness have been developed.
Is that what is called "secondary object" in the normal course of events.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Vipassanā Techniques Revisited

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Greetings Sam Vara,
Sam Vara wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:50 am My initial comment is that it's a minor tour de force. It needs preserving and disseminating in a better format - a little booklet, perhaps?
Thank you for the kind words.

I've since abandoned the idea of these being sections within a longer book on the subject of different conceptions and potential applications of mindfulness, so would be open to such a thing, should there be any interest.

If and until then, it's here. :)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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