Buddha and God

Post sayings and stories you find interesting or useful.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Buddha and God

Post by Ontheway »

wenjaforever wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:08 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 1:40 pmGod may exists, but he is no Creator.
God is a creator he's a Brahma. The power of creation was attained in 5th heaven. Devas in the 6th heaven even had powers over other creators. You don't even have to be a Brahma to be a creator. Does no one study the suttas around here?
No, he is not the Creator. He did not create the world, the universe or the multiverse. With him or without him, the world evolves and changes.

His power of creation is more like manipulating the reality according to his wish. Yet he is not the Creator of the world(s).

I see that you are too fallen into heretical wrong view "Issaranimanahetu".

This is actually serious as it can get to say: Lord Buddha admits that there is a Creator.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Buddha and God

Post by wenjaforever »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:02 amNo, he is not the Creator. He did not create the world, the universe or the multiverse. With him or without him, the world evolves and changes.

His power of creation is more like manipulating the reality according to his wish. Yet he is not the Creator of the world(s).

I see that you are too fallen into heretical wrong view "Issaranimanahetu".

This is actually serious as it can get to say: Lord Buddha admits that there is a Creator.
The antidote to this wrong view is very simple. And the word you look for to this disease is called monotheism. This is explained in the bakabrahma sutta. Creation is real and you might deceive people by saying that there is no creator.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddha and God

Post by Coëmgenu »

According to the Pāli suttas, Brahmā only thinks that he created the beings born after him into the lokadhātu. The devas that delight in "creation" AFAIK never feature in stories about when worlds are created, not even in the Aggaññasutta.
wenjaforever wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:21 amCreation is real and you might deceive people by saying that there is no creator.
"Creations" are as real an anything else. You can lump all creations together and call them "creation," but "the creator" isn't.

Why should divergent objects have one creator? They are divergent. It's actually monotheism-influenced thinking that suggests that various divergent things ought to have one creator.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Buddha and God

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:25 pm Brahmā only thinks that he created the beings born after him
There is something beyond Brahmā


Perhaps mathematical
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddha and God

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:27 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:25 pm Brahmā only thinks that he created the beings born after him
There is something beyond Brahmā


Perhaps mathematical
Oh my Glob. It's been under our noses this whole time.

What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Buddha and God

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:31 pm It's been under our noses this whole time.
Math that is benevolent and intelligent


Not a benevolent individual


Could be artificial
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Buddha and God

Post by wenjaforever »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:25 pmAccording to the Pāli suttas, Brahmā only thinks that he created the beings born after him into the lokadhātu. The devas that delight in "creation" AFAIK never feature in stories about when worlds are created, not even in the Aggaññasutta.

"Creations" are as real an anything else. You can lump all creations together and call them "creation," but "the creator" isn't.

Why should divergent objects have one creator? They are divergent. It's actually monotheism-influenced thinking that suggests that various divergent things ought to have one creator.
But beings in the 6th heaven have the ability to hijack things created by other creators. If the creations aren't living beings how are they able to control it in the first place? And there are infinite numbers of creatures, won't it make more sense if something created the soul in the first place? I understand that a primordial wind is supposed to create this world, but how did living beings manifest the first time?
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddha and God

Post by Coëmgenu »

The "primordial wind" is merely the first element that manifests in the world-system/lokadhātu after its destruction, and that is according to non-Theravādin exegeses AFAIK. Such winds appear in literature like the Buddhāvataṁsakasūtra. Maybe the Theravādins believe in that too? I wouldn't know. I've never read such a cosmogony in the Pāli suttas, or don't remember if I have.

There is no first point to beings' wandering in saṃsāra. There's no such thing. But that's also a non-Theravādin point. Theravādins either agree with it or say "the Buddha couldn't find such a first point."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Buddha and God

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:11 pmMaybe the Theravādins believe in that too?
what does it matter what people believe


there is what is taught and our learning
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Buddha and God

Post by wenjaforever »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:11 pmThe "primordial wind" is merely the first element that manifests in the world-system/lokadhātu after its destruction, and that is according to non-Theravādin exegeses AFAIK. Such winds appear in literature like the Buddhāvataṁsakasūtra. Maybe the Theravādins believe in that too? I wouldn't know. I've never read such a cosmogony in the Pāli suttas, or don't remember if I have.

There is no first point to beings' wandering in saṃsāra. There's no such thing. But that's also a non-Theravādin point. Theravādins either agree with it or say "the Buddha couldn't find such a first point."
Oh my apology I'm very new here and I'm very grateful to you and Ontheway :anjali:
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Post Reply