MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation of

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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:46 am MN 19
MN 19 appears to literally say the three wholesome thoughts do not exist in jhana.
As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of renunciation has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

... Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna…

MN 19
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:57 am
frank k wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:46 am MN 19
MN 19 appears to literally say the three wholesome thoughts do not exist in jhana.
As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of renunciation has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

... Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna…

MN 19
you can read out three kinds of thoughts there,

1. thought what arose
2. thinking these thoughts, following them
3. thinking about thinking these thoughts is cause and effect, understanding it/seeing it will give you an ability to concentrate.

there are multiple possible interpretations to find what actually is meant. One possibility is 1st corner of satipatthana to find a way to pacify the body so that the mind would become workable not strained.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:57 am ...[samphappalāpā] ...

You're still on my blocked list, and will remain so after reading your post reply.
You sound like a broken record.

If you didn't understand the first, second, or third time I explained your error (over the months and years), you're probably not going to understand it now.
This is for the other readers on the thread:

http://lucid24.org/mn/mn019/index.html

The link for the agama parallel is on the navigation bar of MN 19.
Doo Doot (I would guess is an onomatopoeia of the sound one makes when they talk using the wrong orifice), has trouble understanding the difference between the kusala dhamma vitakka of first jhana, and the bahuli (much, excessive) vitakka and the anu-vitakka (continuous-thought) that the buddha said tires the body and mind. If you bahuli vitakka and anu vitakka, that can happen.

But if the kusala vitakka is attenuated, decreased to the point where the body pacified (passadhi sambojjhanga), then that triggers jhana.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by simsapa »

From the introduction to Volume II:
Although care has been taken to ensure that Volumes II to IV generally maintain continuity of terminology and style with Volume I, two exceptions have been introduced. These deserve to be spelled out here, not only to inform readers but also to illustrate the kinds of difficult decisions that translators of Chinese Buddhist texts often have to make. The first exception concerns the paired Chinese terms jue and guan. These denote the first two factors of the first meditative absorption (Pāli jhāna) and correspond to the paired Pāli terms vitakka and vicāra. In Volume I jue and guan are translated as “initial and sustained application of the mind,” because that (or something similar) is how the corresponding Pāli terms are sometimes rendered. In Volumes II to IV, however, the terms jué and guān in the same context are translated as “[directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation.” We believe this phrase succeeds in capturing the meanings of the two terms as they are used elsewhere in the Chinese Madhyama-āgama. This change was made with full recognition that there is sometimes a tension between the twin aims of producing a faithful rendering of the Chinese text and taking due account of the underlying Indic text.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

simsapa wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:40 pm From the introduction to Volume II:
... “[directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation.” We believe this phrase succeeds in capturing the meanings of the two terms as they are used elsewhere in the Chinese Madhyama-āgama. This change was made with full recognition that there is sometimes a tension between the twin aims of producing a faithful rendering of the Chinese text and taking due account of the underlying Indic text.
And as I detail in the collection of articles here,
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -and.html
His translation is not faithful to either aim.
It's not faithful to the Chinese text,
and it's not faithful to the underlying indic source.
(it is faithful to late Abhidhamma Orthodox wrong interpretation of indic source, but B. Analayo claims to interpret with EBT having primacy over later texts)

Basically, B. Analayo as editor in chief, like Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein, abuse their power and over rule the evidence and rational objections from their subordinates and colleagues.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

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Doo Doot (I would guess is an onomatopoeia of the sound one makes when they talk using the wrong orifice)
This is unbecoming of a practitioner, regardless of your relationship with anyone. The apparent intent in context here is to insult someone using foul imagery. As others have said, this kind of speech will make it much harder for others to consider what you have to say. You seem angry and vindictive. These are not the qualities of a trustworthy guide.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by simsapa »

His translation is not faithful to either aim.
It's not faithful to the Chinese text,
and it's not faithful to the underlying indic source.
Yours is not the only opinion on this topic. They clearly explained the logic behind their translation choice.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by dharmacorps »

frank k wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
Why do you think B. Analayo and B. Sujato have not responded to my accusations (as well as all of those from others who used mild language)?
If I had to guess why people don't respond to you (which, by the way, nobody is required to do under any circumstances), as your most recent response demonstrates quite well....you come off as kind of nutty, to be honest. If you criticized a translation or article I wrote, I wouldn't respond to you either because it doesn't seem like a reasonable person is on the other end.

In other words, the lack of response to your posts may not be evidence of superiority of your intellectual/academic argument, as you seem to have assumed-- whatever it might be underneath the tones of apparent anger, provocation, and hostility.

Again.. invective "accusations" do not invite serious dialogue. They DO invite fighting though, so if you are looking for that, you will certainly find it in the world. If that is the case, all I can say is it is truly tragic you have chosen to use the dhamma as your topic for seeking out conflict.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi Frankk,

First, I buy your argument about Vitakka and Vicara and You've helped immensely in my practice. I think that with the comparison with the Agamas the argument that there's (skillful, renunciation) thought in first jhana is even more stronger since MA102 skips (as one should expect) directly to second jhana. 100% agree with you. I even agree that Analayo sometimes simply puts his preferences into his arguments and translations.

Still, I'm seriously worried about your manners. I think that what you do sometimes goes contrary to right speech and remember MN8:
(5) ‘Others will speak falsehood; we shall abstain from false speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.

(6) ‘Others will speak maliciously; we shall abstain from malicious speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.

(7) ‘Others will speak harshly; we shall abstain from harsh speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.

(10) ‘Others will have ill will; we shall be without ill will here’: effacement should be practised thus.
Even if what you think about Analayo, DooDoot and others is true, you should simply abstain to insult and write things like the ones you have said to DooDoot in this topic. It has to be expected that the Dhamma is not understood, that people will not share our opinion and such and we should always consider the possibility that we could be the ones to be wrong, no matter how hard we research a given topic. Your arguments will help some, Analayo maybe will confuse others, conditions are in that way and no amount of insults will change that, but it is to be expected that your speech will turn away many people from your arguments.

I don't think that you're a famous Bhikku like Bodhi or Analayo. If you get banned from this forum for harsh speech, very few people will discover your arguments. I would have never discovered them. If you still think that it is good to speak like that, at least think about that unwelcome possibility.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by DooDoot »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:01 pm First, I buy your argument about Vitakka and Vicara ...
The above is a wrong view. MN 19 clearly says the 3 types of wholesome thought are absent in the 1st jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:29 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
Why do you think B. Analayo and B. Sujato have not responded to my accusations (as well as all of those from others who used mild language)?
If I had to guess why people don't respond to you (which, by the way, nobody is required to do under any circumstances), as your most recent response demonstrates quite well....you come off as kind of nutty, to be honest. If you criticized a translation or article I wrote, I wouldn't respond to you either because it doesn't seem like a reasonable person is on the other end.
...
No need to beat a dead horse. I deleted the part of the reply where you're just repeating yourself on a point I already conceded and agreed with.
Which indicates you're more focused on giving the appearance of winning an argument rather than actually advancing the discussion.
Look again at what you quoted from me :
Why do you think B. Analayo and B. Sujato completely ignored private and public criticisms that were the same as mine, but from other people and
worded more gently?
Here's one example of a person posting detailed critique in super gentle and humble language, doing his own independent research, nothing to do with me, my research was independent from his.
He posted a link on B. Sujato's suttacentral forum, where B. Sujato definitely would have seen it,
and Sujato ignored it.
http://blog.buddha-vacana.org/why-vitak ... in-jhana/

And as I stated already earlier in the thread, which you chose to ignore or forget, I also started off with polite and gentle hints (in raising the issue with those monks), before gradually turning up the heat.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

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frank k wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:05 am Why do you think B. Analayo and B. Sujato completely ignored private and public criticisms that were the same as mine, but from other people and worded more gently?
Any wise person would ignore your private and public criticisms.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:05 pm I don't know much about him
It appears the same applies to the Buddha.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:05 pmbut I know
Unlikely.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:05 pmmany people seem to hide the fact that the Buddha clearly described the first jhāna as containing thought in order to fit the sutta jhānas
The Buddha described the first jhana as absent of ordinary thought, as follows:
As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna....

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi
Vitakka in jhana is simply the mind moving towards the rapture and vicara is simply the mind exploring the rapture.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:05 pm Maybe Venerable Analayo just wasn't so cohesive in his translations. Contemplation can fit both as vitakka and contemplation as in satipaṭṭhānas depending how you interpret the context.
The above is so wrong that I imagine not understand both Pali & English well might be the source of the confusion. :console:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

simsapa wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:58 pm
His translation is not faithful to either aim.
It's not faithful to the Chinese text,
and it's not faithful to the underlying indic source.
Yours is not the only opinion on this topic. They clearly explained the logic behind their translation choice.
I didn't just give an opinion - I supplied ample evidence and detailed the logical flaws where they failed in their two aims.
Their translation and interpretation fail the test of logic, miserably.
What you mean to say is "they clearly explained their intention and motivation for their translation choice."
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:37 am I supplied ample evidence and detailed the logical flaws where they failed in their two aims.
You didn't. MN 19 says:
So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna.... :meditate:
Contrary to what you have preaching for years, the following video is not the 1st jhana: :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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