Bodhicitta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: Bodhicitta

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Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:17 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:06 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:42 pm

Actually, I would be interested to know how many DW folk are cultivating or might in future cultivate, the bodhisatta path as outlined only by Theravadin sources.
I think it's a matter of lineage. Regardless whether some join mahayana or theravada they may be following the path of arahantship or the path of buddhahood depending on lineage. But of course the number of those following the path of arahantship will be higher among Theravada followers as will the number of those following the path of buddhahood be highter among Mahayana followers. So from my perspective what is decisive is lineage not outer tradition.
What is decisive is the motivation or intent of the individual. Whatever one follows or rejects, the decision is still that of the individual.
Here's the disagreement. Believing in autonomous decision is believing in self and 'I am'.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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The Vimuttimagga also has a good section on cultivating a bodhisatta attitude.
Q. What are the roots [...] of loving-kindness?

A. Absence of greed is a root; absence of hatred is a root; absence of delusion is a root. Willing is a root. Right consideration (Sammā manasikāra) is a root.
I put in bold the element that if one strives, wills or vows to live this way, not only for this lifetime but future lives as well, it will happen. For how many lives depends on the power & sincerity of the vow.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
SteRo
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Re: Bodhicitta

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Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:02 pm The Vimuttimagga also has a good section on cultivating a bodhisatta attitude.
Q. What are the roots [...] of loving-kindness?

A. Absence of greed is a root; absence of hatred is a root; absence of delusion is a root. Willing is a root. Right consideration (Sammā manasikāra) is a root.
I put in bold the element that if one strives, wills or vows to live this way, not only for this lifetime but future lives as well, it will happen. For how many lives depends on the power & sincerity of the vow.
What is the "power & sincerity of the vow"? You are quoting from the Vimuttimagga and comment as if the Vimuttimagga would be teaching the bodhisattva path as taught by Mahayana doctrine. Does the Vimuttimagga teach a vow?

Why do you place that emphasis on worldly will? If there is such an aspiration based on worldly decision how could that survive the change of lineage to ariya paths? That would be impossible if such an aspiration wouldn't be natural, non-artificial and effortless. So you think that will-power and vow can cause such a natural, non-artificial and effortless attitude?
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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SteRo wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:32 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:02 pm The Vimuttimagga also has a good section on cultivating a bodhisatta attitude.
Q. What are the roots [...] of loving-kindness?

A. Absence of greed is a root; absence of hatred is a root; absence of delusion is a root. Willing is a root. Right consideration (Sammā manasikāra) is a root.
I put in bold the element that if one strives, wills or vows to live this way, not only for this lifetime but future lives as well, it will happen. For how many lives depends on the power & sincerity of the vow.
[...]
Why do you place that emphasis on worldly will? If there is such an aspiration based on worldly decision how could that survive the change of lineage to ariya paths? That would be impossible if such an aspiration wouldn't be natural, non-artificial and effortless. So you think that will-power and vow can cause such a natural, non-artificial and effortless attitude?
I am only reading pp 185-97 in the Vimuttimagga with no thought of imposing Mahayana views. Study them yourself.

You seem to have a wrong view of "worldly" vows, resolve, aspiration etc. Without them and the deliberate meditations on the mentioned topics, one will never effect a "natural, non-artificial and effortless attitude".
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: Bodhicitta

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Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:02 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:32 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:02 pm I put in bold the element that if one strives, wills or vows to live this way, not only for this lifetime but future lives as well, it will happen. For how many lives depends on the power & sincerity of the vow.
[...]
Why do you place that emphasis on worldly will? If there is such an aspiration based on worldly decision how could that survive the change of lineage to ariya paths? That would be impossible if such an aspiration wouldn't be natural, non-artificial and effortless. So you think that will-power and vow can cause such a natural, non-artificial and effortless attitude?
...
You seem to have a wrong view of "worldly" vows, resolve, aspiration etc. Without them and the deliberate meditations on the mentioned topics, one will never effect a "natural, non-artificial and effortless attitude".
You basically answered my question ("So you think that ...?") with "yes". That's actually affirmation of the hypothesis of the Mahayana doctrine.

What I called "worldly" is just the application of the differentiation between 'worldling' and 'ariya' in the theravada tradition and the application of the corresponding differentiation between "with vs without outflows" in terms of "wordly path vs noble path". You may call that "wrong view" or "right view" as you like.
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Re: Bodhicitta

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A significant difference between that Mahayana-like aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" and the theravada aspiration seems to be that aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" is aspiration towards acquisition whereas the theravada aspiration is aspiration towards abandonment. Aspiration towards acquisition is usually associated with outlows and becoming in theravada doctrine.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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SteRo wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:31 pm A significant difference between that Mahayana-like aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" and the theravada aspiration seems to be that aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" is aspiration towards acquisition whereas the theravada aspiration is aspiration towards abandonment. Aspiration towards acquisition is usually associated with outlows and becoming in theravada doctrine.
You sure are fond of doctrinal distinctions without differences, as in this case of helping others & self toward liberation with practices outlined in the Path of Freedom & Path of Purification.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
SteRo
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Re: Bodhicitta

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Nicholas Weeks wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:14 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:31 pm A significant difference between that Mahayana-like aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" and the theravada aspiration seems to be that aspiration towards a "natural bodhicitta" is aspiration towards acquisition whereas the theravada aspiration is aspiration towards abandonment. Aspiration towards acquisition is usually associated with outlows and becoming in theravada doctrine.
You sure are fond of doctrinal distinctions without differences, as in this case of helping others & self toward liberation with practices outlined in the Path of Freedom & Path of Purification.
The difference is the goal of the path according of Theravada buddhism.
You seem to be committing two errors:
1. from the mention of the path of a bodhisatta you are inferring that this path would be advocated in Theravada buddhism
2. from the mention of the importance of benefit of others and importance of loving kindness in Theravada sources you are projecting Mahayana ideas like "bodhicitta" on Theravada buddhism.

See, since this is the "connection to other paths" section of the forum you are of course free to fabricate connections beyond the mere words. However although it is admitted that considering mere words there is a connection between Theravada and the Mahayana (how could it be otherwise since both are buddhisms?) there is no evidence that Mahayana "bodhicitta" would be an idea in Theravada buddhism because even though benefit of others and loving kindness are advocated in Theravada, too, the goal of Theravada path is not buddhahood and therefore the idea of "bodhicitta" does not apply to the Theravada path.
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Re: Bodhicitta

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The Silva Method is training to lower your brainwaves to alpha. It is like a self hypnosis method complete with giving yourself suggestions. The important thing is that Jose Silva taught that when you make any plan you should ensure that at least two other people benefit. The more people who gain from your plan, the more resources you will be given to do your work. I'm all in favor of actual plans which benefit other people and have believed in them my whole life. The theory is that if you make a plan to benefit infinite beings then you receive infinite support, as in the Bodhisattva Vow. It just seems to me that the usual result is to divide your effort into infinity and zero it out.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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A major work in one volume is the Middle-Length Treatise on the Stages of the Path by Je Tsongkhapa. For a full and clear teaching on Mahayana (not tantra) this never before translated book is superb. Here is a bit about bodhicitta:
You should understand bodhicitta as the condensed essential
point of all the Mahāyāna instructions, the great treasure among all siddhis,
the distinctive feature that differentiates the Mahāyāna from the Hīnayāna,
and the supreme basis that exhorts one to the vast conduct of the victors’
children. Increase the strength of your delight in meditating on it, like
someone thirsty hearing of water. This is because the buddhas and their
children analyzed the paths for many eons and with increasing subtlety with
their marvelous exalted knowledge and saw it to be the supreme method for
attaining buddhahood.
This link contains a couple of posts (Sep 15, 2021) about the new book:

https://www.dharmapaths.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1694

If you are indifferent or hostile to Mahayana, do not read the book.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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A recent book focused only on this topic - bodhicitta:

https://www.lamayeshe.com/shop/nectar-bodhicitta-book
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: please could contributors to this thread ensure they explicitly link posts to Theravada. :anjali:
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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There are at least a couple of old threads about the Theravada path of a bodhisatta. Suggest those who require an explicit link read them & quote from them here.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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From Maha Thera Nyanaponika's Roots of Good and Evil
The Buddha has taught that there are three roots of evil:
greed, hatred and delusion. These three states comprise the
entire range of evil, whether of lesser or greater intensity,
from a faint mental tendency to the coarsest manifestations
in action and speech. In whatever way they appear, these are
the basic causes of suffering.

These roots have their opposites: non-greed, non-hatred
and non-delusion. These are the three roots of good: of all
acts of unselfishness, liberality and renunciation; of all expressions
of loving-kindness and compassion; of all achievements
in knowledge and understanding.

These six mental states are the roots from which everything
harmful and beneficial sprouts. They are the roots of
the Tree of Life with its sweet and bitter fruits.
The middle paragraph will remind some of Je Tsongkhapa's Mahayana Three Principles of the Path:
Renunciation, Bodhicitta & Right View.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Bodhicitta

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Here is a translation of Nagarjuna's Ratnavali of 500 verses on the bodhicitta theme. Beginning with verse 465 he suggests the daily pledging of 20 vows for aspiring bodhisattvas:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Nag ... avali.html
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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