Bodhicitta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by SteRo »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:09 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:16 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:03 pm

Unwarranted assumption that "I am" always has conceit as its root. Buddha used "I" in the conventional, ordinary sense also.
But if the assumption "I am" would not be conceit then it should be in line with reality. However reality does not support the assumption "I am" and therefore Gautama taught that nothing supports the assumption "I am".
Therefore that aspiration is nothing but a manifestation of the ignorant assumption "I am".
Therefore the following use of "I" is also moved by conceit & is an ignorant assumption of Buddha's. (There are over 50 uses of the conventional "I" in this text.)
222. He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins.
You don't seem to understand. This is not a question of conventional language but a question of reality.
What is the remainder of that aspiration in case it is deprived of the conceit 'I am'?
This question applies equally for the aspiration of seeking only one's own benefit. And there is a sutta that praises those following the path for the benefit of others and own benefit and blames those following the path only for own benefit. What might be the reason for this other than merely skillful means?

So the question might also be expressed: What is the difference between these two aspirations in the face of reality that there isn't any support of 'I am' and therefore also no support for 'they are'?

When a sotapanna has caught a glimpse of reality there is certainty of liberation and any variant of aspiration might become useless due to that certainty. It is only the Mahayana that asserts that the two variants of aspirations entail different results. But according the teachings of Gotama it seems that a selfish aspiration might undermine or obstruct attaining a sotapanna's certainty of liberation which is why only one of the two aspirations has been praised. Thus from the perspective of ignorance the 'benefit of others' is supported because following that advice 'others' might also attain the sotapanna's certainty of liberation which actually is independent of ignorant 'I am' and ignorant 'they are' and independent of ignorant 'own benefit' and ignorant 'benefit of others'.

See? That's the difference. Clinging to the idea that the aspiration you are advocating is based on reality is advocating Mahayana doctrine. Accepting that it is only skillful means to support liberation is neither Mahayana nor Theravada. Why? Because this does not support Mahayana doctrine and accepting "skillful means" is accepting an idea alien to Theravada doctrine.

It would be interesting how Theravadins justify the praise of aspiration 'for own benefit and benefit of others' and the blame for 'only own benefit' without taking refuge to the idea of 'skillful means'.
"Of two people who practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning — one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others, and one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others — the one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others is to be criticized for that reason, the one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others is, for that reason, to be praised."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Aloka »

"Mahabrahma" wrote:Have you ever noticed the goal of Guatama Buddha was to make everyone a Buddha like Himself,
I haven't noticed a sutta where the Buddha declares "My goal is to make everyone a Buddha like myself". Could you provide sutta references please?


.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Mahabrahma »

Aloka wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:35 am
"Mahabrahma" wrote:Have you ever noticed the goal of Guatama Buddha was to make everyone a Buddha like Himself,
I haven't noticed a sutta where the Buddha declares "My goal is to make everyone a Buddha like myself". Could you provide sutta references please?


.
Thank you for asking.
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Two: Expedient Means.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by binocular »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:47 pmCurious remark - why would inferior/superior pop up in ones mind?
Because one presumes to know The Truth and is convinced that others don't know it, and one sees oneself as the Guide to others.
It's the conviction in one's own superiority, also known as conceit.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by binocular »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:27 pm The Saha world will end for everyone eventually. No one left behind. In light of sattvadhātu not decreasing or increasing.
And the good bodhisattvas will save everyone, even if this means killing them ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Could there be clinging to doctrine here?
When selfish aspiration, or selfish anything occurs, of course that is not Dharma.
There seems to be a presumption that selfish aspiration is the only motive possible. Surely a real selfless motive to benefit self & others does occur in some minds & hearts!

Are Nyanaponika Maha Thera (below) & Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's previous Excellent Man teaching in opposition?
Self-protection and protection of others correspond to the great twin virtues of Buddhism, wisdom and compassion. Right self-protection is the expression of wisdom, right protection of others the expression of compassion. Wisdom and compassion, being the primary elements of Bodhi or Enlightenment, have found their highest perfection in the Fully Enlightened One, the Buddha. The insistence on their harmonious development is a characteristic feature of the entire Dhamma. We meet them in the four sublime states (brahmavihāra), where equanimity corresponds to wisdom and self-protection, while loving kindness, compassion and sympathetic joy correspond to compassion and the protection of others.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Mahabrahma »

binocular wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:58 am
Mahabrahma wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:27 pm The Saha world will end for everyone eventually. No one left behind. In light of sattvadhātu not decreasing or increasing.
And the good bodhisattvas will save everyone, even if this means killing them ...
Not killing. There is a precept against that. Though there are certain Transcendental Weapons advanced Buddhists can use to send demons to a better life, but this does not involve bloodshed or hurt, or unbalancing Sunyata in any way. It is a direct transferrance to a higher state by Spiritual means when the demon is ready, not against the will deep within them, even if they fight against the Buddhist in question. The end of Kali-Yuga has a lot of this going on with a form of Buddha present there doing such things, but this is according to Hindu Dharma and the belief in the Kalki Avatar.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Aloka »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:55 am
Aloka wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:35 am
"Mahabrahma" wrote:Have you ever noticed the goal of Guatama Buddha was to make everyone a Buddha like Himself,
I haven't noticed a sutta where the Buddha declares "My goal is to make everyone a Buddha like myself". Could you provide sutta references please?


.
Thank you for asking.
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Two: Expedient Means.
Just for clarification, when I say "sutta" I mean the Buddha's words from the Pali Canon and not any of the writings from the Mahayana sutras. Please read the information at the link below

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/10/18 ... authentic/


:anjali:



.
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Inedible »

It always seemed strange that everyone on the Mahayana has to vow to individually save everyone from Samsara. I'd think they would work together. Like I'll get these fifty here, you get those fifty there. And why hasn't the one assigned to push me into Nirvana showed up yet?
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by santa100 »

Inedible wrote:It always seemed strange that everyone on the Mahayana has to vow to individually save everyone from Samsara. I'd think they would work together. Like I'll get these fifty here, you get those fifty there. And why hasn't the one assigned to push me into Nirvana showed up yet?
Well, not everyone in the Mahayana. Remember Mahayana is a huge entity with so many different groups and sub-groups that don't necessary share the same belief. For example Pure-Landers would be happy to recite the Buddho name just to get to their heaven of choice. Certain Zen/Chan sects do not believe in the literal interpretation of "delivering every single sentient being". They take the more symbolic interpretation, that "sentient being" in this context, is every single defiled/unwholesome conduct(body/speech/mind) that'll need to be "delivered", hence theirs really no different to the approach of other more traditional schools, like the Theravada.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by binocular »

Inedible wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:13 pmI'd think they would work together. Like I'll get these fifty here, you get those fifty there.
But at that level of organization and structure, they'd actually have to deliver on their promise!!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by befriend »

Anyone who cares more about others than their own self is practicing the spirit of a bodhissatva this is inline with theravadan Buddhism and the Jataka tales sacrificing ones life for others is theravadan and bodhissatva I have the perception that my comfort is more important than others sometimes than I remind myself of the Tibetan teachings of other cherishing instead of self cherishing. I think we all have that deluded perception that we are more important than others it is a huge obstacle to selflessness and compassion
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4210
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: USA West Coast

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

befriend wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:12 pm Anyone who cares more about others than their own self is practicing the spirit of a bodhissatva this is inline with theravadan Buddhism and the Jataka tales sacrificing ones life for others is theravadan and bodhissatva I have the perception that my comfort is more important than others sometimes than I remind myself of the Tibetan teachings of other cherishing instead of self cherishing. I think we all have that deluded perception that we are more important than others it is a huge obstacle to selflessness and compassion
Yes indeed! :bow:

Attitude & living with wisdom/compassion determines the Way or Yana, not doctrinal conceptions. :buddha2:
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Mahabrahma »

If you believe in nonsense like this, with someone's blog misunderstanding Wikipedia as a misunderstood source for a false argument, and saying he doesn't know his own question about his false statement with regards to academics (some of the modern Lotus Sutra translations have been translated by academic Buddhists, and there are countless academic practitioners of the Lotus Sutra among the different schools that are it's proponents), sourcing an article that praises the Lotus Sutra anyway, yet believing it was not spoken by the Buddha, you are lost in your misunderstanding. The Lotus Sutra is the most famous Buddhist text. So if I were you I would trust the Buddhists who put all of this together for you, not partake in the in-fighting, and quit trying to treat parts of Shakyamuni's Buddhism as some sort of a scam. It is a great sin to disparage the Lotus Sutra, though that is not what I believe you are doing, I believe you are just trying to figure something out. All Buddhism is sacred and to be revered, and the Mystic Law of the Lotus Sutra is the way to Enlightenment. There are many Theravada monks who accept Mahayana Sutras, including the Lotus Sutra, and come to Enlightenment through it. If you don't see the Light in all Buddhism, you will have trouble shining your own Buddhist Light from within. The Buddha's words are true and not false.

You have perfect Bodhicitta, and I am glad you are standing up for certain types of Theravada views, but when you fully see yourself for how much or a wonderful Buddhist you truly are I believe you will also see and understand the Lotus Sutra perfectly.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Bodhicitta

Post by Aloka »

MahaBrahma wrote:If you believe in nonsense like this......
I could say exactly the same about your own beliefs, Ms/Mr/Mrs/he/she/they, Brahma.
the Mystic Law of the Lotus Sutra is the way to Enlightenment.

To you maybe, but it certainly isn't for me.

Have a lovely day.


:anjali:

.
Post Reply