confusedlayman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:41 pm
coconut wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm
auto wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:45 pm
I don't say about ignoring gradual training. I should have left the signless out of the quote but thought perhaps then it is something to do with the context so i left it in in case i am out of the context with my quote.
Sense restraint -> nimitta
Restrained senses, craving will arise and the nimitta is there for grabbing thanks to the three poisons. Grasping is the characteristic of the attention(manasikara).
That is another thing, if the nimitta arises, even if it is a light, it should be graspable.
ps, i have no idea about Suttas by their head lines. I am used to the mn 1, sn 1 style.
also manasikara is by some translated 'reasoning'.
i already see i need more to learn, so i will learn
I don't fully understand your comment, are you saying that grasping is a result of the 3 poisons? If so I agree, but this isn't what you said earlier. Nimittas and grasping are two different things.
I would say grasping is a characteristic of unwise/improper attention.
Also do you have any more Rhys Davids suttas with that translation? Doesn't seem to be a common one for both Mr/Mrs Davids,
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
I agree grasping is product of unwise attention.. but can you tell me how I can differentiate between grasping and knowing something? can intense clinging be called grasping? knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Clinging/Grasping is stopped when the fetters are given up.
There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
Knowing happens when the 5 hindrances are given up, as the condition for ignorance is the 5 hindrances.
“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi
Therefore it always begins with Sati, putting your attention and thinking about the dhamma. That means to have proper attention you need to have Right View. What is supermundane Right View? The four noble truths, dependent origination, the 3 characteristics, the 5 aggregates resulting in letting and giving up craving and clinging to the 5 aggregates.
When one is in jhana, they direct their attention to dependent origination and see the drawbacks of the 5 aggregates, and later on the 3 characteristics of intention and how it creates conceit which is the last asava one has to overcome.
So to answer your question:
knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Knowing is seeing the causes and conditions that bring something into existence, and then stopping the cause.