How long to attain first jhana?

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coconut
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:16 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:08 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:57 pm

Doesn't the sutta cited above mean that improper attention to the sign of the beautiful is to be avoided, rather than all attention is to be avoided? Or are you making a point about your own findings?
There's other suttas where the Buddha says if one looks at something beautiful then they should not look at the signs of the beauty, i.e. avoided. He even directly says one should not look at beautiful women in one of the suttas.
I'm thinking of SN 46.51. Which are the other ones to which you refer, and if they are at odds, how do you think we should deal with the disparity?
Asubha meditation.. Why would you think sense-restraint involves looking at beautiful things? Sense-restraint means exactly what it says, avoiding at looking at sensual things.. See Right Effort:
And what are the defilements that should be given up by restraint? Take a mendicant who, reflecting properly, lives restraining the faculty of the eye. For the distressing and feverish defilements that might arise in someone who lives without restraint of the eye faculty do not arise when there is such restraint. Reflecting properly, they live restraining the faculty of the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind. For the distressing and feverish defilements that might arise in someone who lives without restraint of the mind faculty do not arise when there is such restraint.
I.e. you avoid entirely as much as you can, and when it arises you turn away from it.
And what is right effort?

Here the monk arouses his will, puts forth effort, generates energy, exerts his mind, and strives to prevent the arising of evil and unwholesome mental states that have not yet arisen.

He arouses his will... and strives to eliminate evil and unwholesome mental states that have already arisen. He arouses his will... and strives to generate wholesome mental states that have not yet arisen.

He arouses his will, puts forth effort, generates energy, exerts his mind, and strives to maintain wholesome mental states that have already arisen, to keep them free of delusion, to develop, increase, cultivate, and perfect them.

This is called right effort.
auto
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by auto »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:09 pm Yeah, when you're an Arahant path attainer then your job is to work on signless concentration, but I'm not that, so ignoring the gradual training is wrong view.
I mean the nimitta, any kind of them arise because of 3 poisons, craving is the reason why there is diversity of paths. So therefore there is the order: that the nimitta arises when senses are restrained which is one path model not the other way around like get jhana with various methods and then deal with the craving.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:26 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:09 pm Yeah, when you're an Arahant path attainer then your job is to work on signless concentration, but I'm not that, so ignoring the gradual training is wrong view.
I mean the nimitta, any kind of them arise because of 3 poisons, craving is the reason why there is diversity of paths. So therefore there is the order: that the nimitta arises when senses are restrained which is one path model not the other way around like get jhana with various methods and then deal with the craving.
I don't understand your point, you're still supposed to master the signs of the mind as per Chef's cook sutta, and only deal with giving up signs all together at the end of the path, upon attaining arahantship. One cannot ignore the gradual training.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by auto »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:29 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:26 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:09 pm Yeah, when you're an Arahant path attainer then your job is to work on signless concentration, but I'm not that, so ignoring the gradual training is wrong view.
I mean the nimitta, any kind of them arise because of 3 poisons, craving is the reason why there is diversity of paths. So therefore there is the order: that the nimitta arises when senses are restrained which is one path model not the other way around like get jhana with various methods and then deal with the craving.
I don't understand your point, you're still supposed to master the signs of the mind as per Chef's cook sutta, and only deal with giving up signs all together at the end of the path, upon attaining arahantship. One cannot ignore the gradual training.
I don't say about ignoring gradual training. I should have left the signless out of the quote but thought perhaps then it is something to do with the context so i left it in in case i am out of the context with my quote.
Sense restraint -> nimitta
Restrained senses, craving will arise and the nimitta is there for grabbing thanks to the three poisons. Grasping is the characteristic of the attention(manasikara).
That is another thing, if the nimitta arises, even if it is a light, it should be graspable.

ps, i have no idea about Suttas by their head lines. I am used to the mn 1, sn 1 style.

also manasikara is by some translated 'reasoning'.
https://suttacentral.net/mil3.1.8/en/tw_rhysdavids wrote: 3.1.8. Wisdom and reasoning distinguished (cont.)
The king said: ‘What is the characteristic mark of reasoning, and what of wisdom?’

‘Reasoning has always comprehension as its mark; but wisdom has cutting off.’

Rājā āha—“kiṃlakkhaṇo, bhante nāgasena, manasikāro, kiṃlakkhaṇā paññā”ti? “Ūhanalakkhaṇo kho, mahārāja, manasikāro, chedanalakkhaṇā paññā”ti.
i already see i need more to learn, so i will learn
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Sam Vara
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:21 pm
Asubha meditation.. Why would you think sense-restraint involves looking at beautiful things? Sense-restraint means exactly what it says, avoiding at looking at sensual things.. See Right Effort:
I'm not sure what asubha meditation has to do with it. I was wondering if you had any references for the suttas that say that beauty should not be attended to at all, so they could be compared with the SN example which specifies that it is specifically unwise attention to the subhanimitta which is to be avoided because it fuels kāmacchanda; rather than any attention at all. Nor is it clear that the Pali terms which get translated as "sense restraint" mean avoiding looking at things.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:58 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:21 pm
Asubha meditation.. Why would you think sense-restraint involves looking at beautiful things? Sense-restraint means exactly what it says, avoiding at looking at sensual things.. See Right Effort:
I'm not sure what asubha meditation has to do with it. I was wondering if you had any references for the suttas that say that beauty should not be attended to at all, so they could be compared with the SN example which specifies that it is specifically unwise attention to the subhanimitta which is to be avoided because it fuels kāmacchanda; rather than any attention at all. Nor is it clear that the Pali terms which get translated as "sense restraint" mean avoiding looking at things.
Are you saying you can look at beautiful things and not attend to them? Seems contradictory. If not, what are you saying?

Yes, there is a sutta where the Buddha says do not look at women, but I can't find it at the moment. Also there is a sutta of a woman looking at a monk, and he focuses on the disgusting part of her like her teeth, or he imagines her as a rotting corpse. So he is doing asubha perception and ignoring her beautiful features.

And sense restraint is about not attending to beautiful/desireous things or their features.
And what’s the taming practice? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, they practice restraint, protecting the faculty of sight, and achieving restraint over it. When they hear a sound with their ears … When they smell an odor with their nose … When they taste a flavor with their tongue … When they feel a touch with their body … When they know a thought with their mind, they don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of mind were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, they practice restraint, protecting the faculty of mind, and achieving restraint over it. This is called the taming practice.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.164/en/sujato

So your option is to completely look away/avoid, or look at it but "don't get caught up in the features and details". But as I told auto, the practice is asubha meditation to remove the hindrance of sensual desire, which is what the original sutta I linked to was referring to when it comes to nimittas.
Last edited by coconut on Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

oatsandmilk wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:54 pm I have been meditating for about five years or little more. But I cannot say I have ever reached jhana. Only been able to feel peaceful and tranquil.

However on Reddit there are a few who reached first jhana in less than a month or even less than a week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ain_jhana/

Is it because they had a purer mind? What role does purity of mind (by which I mean lack of Kleshas, the ten defilements listed in Abhidhamma) have to play?

:anjali:
I've experienced jhana on retreats, doing a lot of meditation. It's been much more challenging at home, for various reasons.
The seven factors of enlightenment might be a more productive line of enquiry.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:45 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:29 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:26 pm
I mean the nimitta, any kind of them arise because of 3 poisons, craving is the reason why there is diversity of paths. So therefore there is the order: that the nimitta arises when senses are restrained which is one path model not the other way around like get jhana with various methods and then deal with the craving.
I don't understand your point, you're still supposed to master the signs of the mind as per Chef's cook sutta, and only deal with giving up signs all together at the end of the path, upon attaining arahantship. One cannot ignore the gradual training.
I don't say about ignoring gradual training. I should have left the signless out of the quote but thought perhaps then it is something to do with the context so i left it in in case i am out of the context with my quote.
Sense restraint -> nimitta
Restrained senses, craving will arise and the nimitta is there for grabbing thanks to the three poisons. Grasping is the characteristic of the attention(manasikara).
That is another thing, if the nimitta arises, even if it is a light, it should be graspable.

ps, i have no idea about Suttas by their head lines. I am used to the mn 1, sn 1 style.

also manasikara is by some translated 'reasoning'.
https://suttacentral.net/mil3.1.8/en/tw_rhysdavids wrote: 3.1.8. Wisdom and reasoning distinguished (cont.)
The king said: ‘What is the characteristic mark of reasoning, and what of wisdom?’

‘Reasoning has always comprehension as its mark; but wisdom has cutting off.’

Rājā āha—“kiṃlakkhaṇo, bhante nāgasena, manasikāro, kiṃlakkhaṇā paññā”ti? “Ūhanalakkhaṇo kho, mahārāja, manasikāro, chedanalakkhaṇā paññā”ti.
i already see i need more to learn, so i will learn
I don't fully understand your comment, are you saying that grasping is a result of the 3 poisons? If so I agree, but this isn't what you said earlier. Nimittas and grasping are two different things.

I would say grasping is a characteristic of unwise/improper attention.

Also do you have any more Rhys Davids suttas with that translation? Doesn't seem to be a common one for both Mr/Mrs Davids, http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:45 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:29 pm

I don't understand your point, you're still supposed to master the signs of the mind as per Chef's cook sutta, and only deal with giving up signs all together at the end of the path, upon attaining arahantship. One cannot ignore the gradual training.
I don't say about ignoring gradual training. I should have left the signless out of the quote but thought perhaps then it is something to do with the context so i left it in in case i am out of the context with my quote.
Sense restraint -> nimitta
Restrained senses, craving will arise and the nimitta is there for grabbing thanks to the three poisons. Grasping is the characteristic of the attention(manasikara).
That is another thing, if the nimitta arises, even if it is a light, it should be graspable.

ps, i have no idea about Suttas by their head lines. I am used to the mn 1, sn 1 style.

also manasikara is by some translated 'reasoning'.
https://suttacentral.net/mil3.1.8/en/tw_rhysdavids wrote: 3.1.8. Wisdom and reasoning distinguished (cont.)
The king said: ‘What is the characteristic mark of reasoning, and what of wisdom?’

‘Reasoning has always comprehension as its mark; but wisdom has cutting off.’

Rājā āha—“kiṃlakkhaṇo, bhante nāgasena, manasikāro, kiṃlakkhaṇā paññā”ti? “Ūhanalakkhaṇo kho, mahārāja, manasikāro, chedanalakkhaṇā paññā”ti.
i already see i need more to learn, so i will learn
I don't fully understand your comment, are you saying that grasping is a result of the 3 poisons? If so I agree, but this isn't what you said earlier. Nimittas and grasping are two different things.

I would say grasping is a characteristic of unwise/improper attention.

Also do you have any more Rhys Davids suttas with that translation? Doesn't seem to be a common one for both Mr/Mrs Davids, http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
I agree grasping is product of unwise attention.. but can you tell me how I can differentiate between grasping and knowing something? can intense clinging be called grasping? knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:41 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:45 pm
I don't say about ignoring gradual training. I should have left the signless out of the quote but thought perhaps then it is something to do with the context so i left it in in case i am out of the context with my quote.
Sense restraint -> nimitta
Restrained senses, craving will arise and the nimitta is there for grabbing thanks to the three poisons. Grasping is the characteristic of the attention(manasikara).
That is another thing, if the nimitta arises, even if it is a light, it should be graspable.

ps, i have no idea about Suttas by their head lines. I am used to the mn 1, sn 1 style.

also manasikara is by some translated 'reasoning'.


i already see i need more to learn, so i will learn
I don't fully understand your comment, are you saying that grasping is a result of the 3 poisons? If so I agree, but this isn't what you said earlier. Nimittas and grasping are two different things.

I would say grasping is a characteristic of unwise/improper attention.

Also do you have any more Rhys Davids suttas with that translation? Doesn't seem to be a common one for both Mr/Mrs Davids, http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
I agree grasping is product of unwise attention.. but can you tell me how I can differentiate between grasping and knowing something? can intense clinging be called grasping? knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Clinging/Grasping is stopped when the fetters are given up.
There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
Knowing happens when the 5 hindrances are given up, as the condition for ignorance is the 5 hindrances.
“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi

Therefore it always begins with Sati, putting your attention and thinking about the dhamma. That means to have proper attention you need to have Right View. What is supermundane Right View? The four noble truths, dependent origination, the 3 characteristics, the 5 aggregates resulting in letting and giving up craving and clinging to the 5 aggregates.

When one is in jhana, they direct their attention to dependent origination and see the drawbacks of the 5 aggregates, and later on the 3 characteristics of intention and how it creates conceit which is the last asava one has to overcome.

So to answer your question:
knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Knowing is seeing the causes and conditions that bring something into existence, and then stopping the cause.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:55 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:41 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:36 pm

I don't fully understand your comment, are you saying that grasping is a result of the 3 poisons? If so I agree, but this isn't what you said earlier. Nimittas and grasping are two different things.

I would say grasping is a characteristic of unwise/improper attention.

Also do you have any more Rhys Davids suttas with that translation? Doesn't seem to be a common one for both Mr/Mrs Davids, http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
I agree grasping is product of unwise attention.. but can you tell me how I can differentiate between grasping and knowing something? can intense clinging be called grasping? knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Clinging/Grasping is stopped when the fetters are given up.
There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.
Knowing happens when the 5 hindrances are given up, as the condition for ignorance is the 5 hindrances.
“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi

Therefore it always begins with Sati, putting your attention and thinking about the dhamma. That means to have proper attention you need to have Right View. What is supermundane Right View? The four noble truths, dependent origination, the 3 characteristics, the 5 aggregates resulting in letting and giving up craving and clinging to the 5 aggregates.

When one is in jhana, they direct their attention to dependent origination and see the drawbacks of the 5 aggregates, and later on the 3 characteristics of intention and how it creates conceit which is the last asava one has to overcome.

So to answer your question:
knowing is mere awareness of something without intense clinging?
Knowing is seeing the causes and conditions that bring something into existence, and then stopping the cause.
thanks.. I will practice soon
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
coconut
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:10 pm

thanks.. I will practice soon
NP, I recommend reading this sutta:
“And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/bodhi

Focus on "When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be"

What fuels the hindrances? What fuels the awakening factors?

It's all about seeing causality.


I like Michael Olds translation of SN 4.4
"It is through mentally tracing things back to their origins, by making the effort to track paths to their sources, beggars, that I have reached incomparable freedom, seen incomparable freedom with my own eyes."
Seeing the origin, cause and effect/birth
To-the-womb-mind-tracking. Studious etiological examination. It is not just finding the point of origin, but the study of the development of a thing down to it's place of origin or conception. This term must serve to indicate tracing a thing to the initial point where it begins (so as to be able to uproot it), but also finding the place where a thing matures to the point of birth (so as to be able to foster it's growth).
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/glosso ... sikara.htm
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:07 pm
Are you saying you can look at beautiful things and not attend to them? Seems contradictory. If not, what are you saying?
No, I'm saying that the sutta seems to leave open the possibility that one might look at or attend to beautiful things, but not do it unwisely. And conversely, that attention to the sign of the ugly must be wise attention for it to be efficacious. The a/yoniso adjective seems to be doing some work in there.
Yes, there is a sutta where the Buddha says do not look at women, but I can't find it at the moment. Also there is a sutta of a woman looking at a monk, and he focuses on the disgusting part of her like her teeth, or he imagines her as a rotting corpse. So he is doing asubha perception and ignoring her beautiful features.
Well, if we had them we could see whether they definitively rule out the possibility of attending to beautiful things without increasing one's sense-desire.
And sense restraint is about not attending to beautiful/desireous things or their features.
Just their features, and attending in a particular way, is what some suttas at least appear to say.
So your option is to completely look away/avoid, or look at it but "don't get caught up in the features and details".
Yes, the suttas I am familiar with seem to suggest the latter. Which means, as per my initial thought, that it is not necessary to avoid looking at beautiful things at all, or to avoid beauty. What is being recommended is not being caught up in, or (what seems to make more sense in the Pali) not grasping at, those details. Avoiding attending unwisely.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:08 pm
coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:07 pm
Are you saying you can look at beautiful things and not attend to them? Seems contradictory. If not, what are you saying?
No, I'm saying that the sutta seems to leave open the possibility that one might look at or attend to beautiful things, but not do it unwisely. And conversely, that attention to the sign of the ugly must be wise attention for it to be efficacious. The a/yoniso adjective seems to be doing some work in there.
Yes, there is a sutta where the Buddha says do not look at women, but I can't find it at the moment. Also there is a sutta of a woman looking at a monk, and he focuses on the disgusting part of her like her teeth, or he imagines her as a rotting corpse. So he is doing asubha perception and ignoring her beautiful features.
Well, if we had them we could see whether they definitively rule out the possibility of attending to beautiful things without increasing one's sense-desire.
And sense restraint is about not attending to beautiful/desireous things or their features.
Just their features, and attending in a particular way, is what some suttas at least appear to say.
So your option is to completely look away/avoid, or look at it but "don't get caught up in the features and details".
Yes, the suttas I am familiar with seem to suggest the latter. Which means, as per my initial thought, that it is not necessary to avoid looking at beautiful things at all, or to avoid beauty. What is being recommended is not being caught up in, or (what seems to make more sense in the Pali) not grasping at, those details. Avoiding attending unwisely.
I'll work on getting those suttas for you tomorrow. Although I'll say, the point of seclusion is exactly to avoid such things. Not to mention the countless suttas of the Buddha implying one should destroy beautiful music (simile of the lute), games (boys destroying sandcastles), form, err on the side of asceticism (MN3), etc.

Telling people to bear with sensuality seems masochistic and needlessly making it difficult for one in training. After the asavas have been destroyed, that's a different matter.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

coconut wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:16 pm
I'll work on getting those suttas for you tomorrow.
Thanks. To be clear, they would have to definitively make the positive claim that beauty should never be attended to at all, if one wishes to be rid of sensual desires.
Although I'll say, the point of seclusion is exactly to avoid such things. Not to mention the countless suttas of the Buddha implying one should destroy beautiful music (simile of the lute), games (boys destroying sandcastles), form, err on the side of asceticism
I'm not sure how these relate, but the only example of sandcastles I'm familiar with is the sattsutta, which is about the clinging to khandhas rather than attending to them at all.
Telling people to bear with sensuality seems masochistic and needlessly making it difficult for one in training. After the asavas have been destroyed, that's a different matter.
Indeed it would be, if by "sensuality" we mean kāmacchanda rather than objects of sensuous experience.
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